Help understand my dyno graph

[ddv_nk12]

I went for my first dyno today. Here is what I got.

Then, after some road and dyno tuning. This is the result:

In case the pics aren't clear, the first run: 22.04 kg-m torque and 219.9 HP at 7900 RPM.

For the second run: 23.79 kg-m and 230.5 HP at 7850 RPM.

From the graphs above, I am seeking some clarification to what those curves and figure mean. When my tuner and another guy saw the graphs, they said good for a stock car and so on. They said the torque is better after tuning. And 1.75 kg-m torque is a lot according to them. The problem is, I don't know what are they talking about or whether what they say is true.

1)So, what do you guys here think? Care to tell what do the curves show? My tuner said with future mods, the torque line will be more straight or something like that.

2)WHP will be lesser than HP by about 20-30%? Which means my car's actual power is only 161WHP. Am I right to say this?

3)Now, I've read that there is no point in revving past the peak power, in my case, 7850 RPM. So, it's best to shift at 7850 RPM and not beyond that as I won't be making any power after that. Right?

4)So, is +1.75 kg-m a lot/good? And is +10.6HP good? Considering that car is close to stock except for some bolt on mods. Both the block and head are stock.

Btw, these runs were done on a Dynomite, if it matters.

Thank you.

 

[mADmAN]

whoah wait... thats on wheel figure or on engine figure?

other than b20 + hondata.. wat else is in ur setup?

 

[ddv_nk12]

I don't know what does that figure mean bro. Wheel figure or engine figure? Anyone??

That's about it bro. Just some IHE and bigger TB. That's all I can think off at the moment. Stock cams, cam pulley, piston and everything. No mods on the internals.

Anyway bro, why whoah?? Good or bad that whoah? Hehe.

 

[AD_EG]

where u did the dyno bro?

as i mentioned normally figures in jb tend to be a little bit high...tried torque racing and also visworks before...figures based on engine hp...

trust me the whoahhh..? is GOOD.
your conversion should be based on 15% power loss..normally 30% for awd cars...

---------- Post added at 12:08 AM ---------- 6 hour anti-bump limit - Previous post was at 12:04 AM ----------

ard 196whp. the gains are good. considering its a stock setup bro :top:

 

[ddv_nk12]

where u did the dyno bro?

as i mentioned normally figures in jb tend to be a little bit high...tried torque racing and also visworks before...figures based on engine hp...

trust me the whoahhh..? is GOOD.
your conversion should be based on 15% power loss..normally 30% for awd cars...

I did it in Torque Racing.

Yes bro. I remember you were telling about this.

If this is based on engine HP, how is it different from wheel HP? Minus 15% from engine HP to get WHP?

I minus 30% earlier. Thanks for telling.

What do these curves mean bro? Even my mech said don't look at the HP. He was more into the curves. He said better than the first dyno but still can improve. I mean where does all these come from? How do we interpret the graph?

---------- Post added at 12:15 AM ---------- 6 hour anti-bump limit - Previous post was at 12:13 AM ----------

Icic. So, 196WHP is good for stock. I am trying to get about 240-250WHP. Is it possible with cams, higher compression pistons. Anything else I can do?

 

[AD_EG]

yup...15% will be 196 whp..

who tuned bro? ah chuan?

ya normally the hp figures not important...the torque is..how to interpret i also not so confident bro...so i don wanna advise...and also normally must see the AFR also

 

[AD_EG]

240whp~250whp..not going to be easy bro...higher comp pistons, big bore 86mm, sleeves,block guard, sleeving, high cams,port n polish head, bigger fuel pump, injectors, oil cooler, bigger radiator, need a better clutch to withstand the power...better brakes,absorbers,tires to adjust to the new power. the costs? hehehe prepare the calculator bro. then..dont forget, need to play gearbox also... cause in drag gear ratio very important...this one ah boy got a lot of poison...i also took my my final drive from him.

i think i might have missed out some parts...other sifus please correct/add where i missed out..

 

[6UE5t]

I'll try to explain a little bit in blue font below, but note that I'm no expert ya, just based on what I see and now as a newbie.

In case the pics aren't clear, the first run: 22.04 kg-m torque and 219.9 HP at 7900 RPM.

For the second run: 23.79 kg-m and 230.5 HP at 7850 RPM.

From the graphs above, I am seeking some clarification to what those curves and figure mean. When my tuner and another guy saw the graphs, they said good for a stock car and so on. They said the torque is better after tuning. And 1.75 kg-m torque is a lot according to them. The problem is, I don't know what are they talking about or whether what they say is true.

1)So, what do you guys here think? Care to tell what do the curves show? My tuner said with future mods, the torque line will be more straight or something like that.
If you compare your before and after blue curve, then you can see that the before one had a noticeable dip at around 5400-5800 rpm whereby the after tuning one has removed that dip (it actually has increasing curve in that rpm range). So the overall shape of the after one is also more stable with not much pronounced dip anywhere so your response/pulling sensation will be much better especially if you play around after 5000 rpm. Of course you can still see that the shape still has that stepping kind of shape where suddenly there's a big jump starting from 5000 rpm which I assume is where your 2nd VTEC cam profile kicks in to produce more gain. Same with the power curve/red curve, you can see that the after one also has more straight and not much dip/bend anymore in that 5400-5800rpm.

2)WHP will be lesser than HP by about 20-30%? Which means my car's actual power is only 161WHP. Am I right to say this?
Is your engine NA or forced induction (turbo/supercharged)? If still NA I'd think that curve is most probably your estimated power at the engine/flywheel so the power at the wheels will be less due to some drivetrain losses. Some say FWD cars loose less (maybe around 20%) and RWD and AWD cars may loose more as much as 25-30%. That's why I prefer to look at dyno which measures power at the wheels cause that's the real one that hits the road.

3)Now, I've read that there is no point in revving past the peak power, in my case, 7850 RPM. So, it's best to shift at 7850 RPM and not beyond that as I won't be making any power after that. Right?
For maximum acceleration, it's best to shift up where in the next gear your rpm will drop to where your torque will start to pull up which is around 5000rpm in your case. Very often this actually requires you to keep pushing in the lower gear to rpm even past your maximum power which in your case can be past 7850rpm.

4)So, is +1.75 kg-m a lot/good? And is +10.6HP good? Considering that car is close to stock except for some bolt on mods. Both the block and head are stock.
That gain by just doing tuning is quite a good one and if your engine is NA, the after number is already very good. Your engine I assume is a 2ltr one, so it already produce 115HP/ltr from an NA engine. For NA engine, producing >100hp/ltr is already very good and not many engines can do that. Forced induction engine however is a different matter as it can produce a lot more than that.

Btw, these runs were done on a Dynomite, if it matters.

Thank you.

 

[ddv_nk12]

yup...15% will be 196 whp..

who tuned bro? ah chuan?

ya normally the hp figures not important...the torque is..how to interpret i also not so confident bro...so i don wanna advise...and also normally must see the AFR also

Ah Chuan huh? I am not familiar with the guys in Torque la bro. I have the picture of him tuning in my build thread. Check out there to confirm if you have the time bro. If u actually see the graph, there is this black line stated AFR below the red and blue lines. Is that what you meant?

any Air Fuel Ratio graph on your result bro? if dyno-ed on Dynojet at JC Racing it will be shown at the bottom.

Here is an example:

My graph don't have that la bro. It has a black line only.

240whp~250whp..not going to be easy bro...higher comp pistons, big bore 86mm, sleeves,block guard, sleeving, high cams,port n polish head, bigger fuel pump, injectors, oil cooler, bigger radiator, need a better clutch to withstand the power...better brakes,absorbers,tires to adjust to the new power. the costs? hehehe prepare the calculator bro. then..dont forget, need to play gearbox also... cause in drag gear ratio very important...this one ah boy got a lot of poison...i also took my my final drive from him.

i think i might have missed out some parts...other sifus please correct/add where i missed out..

Ya la bro. Too much poison from Ah Boy already. I think no need calculator already la bro. The list you have already make me scared. Should stop visiting Ah Boy every time I'm free or I'll need to do 3 jobs. But anyway, thanks for the list. I don't plan on doing it all at one go. Slow slow do la. Having said this, what shall I do next? One item at a time except for head and block mods. Hehe.

I'll try to explain a little bit in blue font below, but note that I'm no expert ya, just based on what I see and now as a newbie.

You call this a non-expert explanation?? For me, this is damn good already la bro. TYVM. To tell you the truth, I was not too happy about the outcome until I read your explanation. Now, I'm happy. Hehe..

 

[6UE5t]

...
What do these curves mean bro? Even my mech said don't look at the HP. He was more into the curves. He said better than the first dyno but still can improve. I mean where does all these come from? How do we interpret the graph?

---------- Post added at 12:15 AM ---------- 6 hour anti-bump limit - Previous post was at 12:13 AM ----------

Icic. So, 196WHP is good for stock. I am trying to get about 240-250WHP. Is it possible with cams, higher compression pistons. Anything else I can do?

In general, the more linear the shape of the torque curve, the better drivability you will experience but I guess for VTEC small engines like yours, most likely it will still have that staircase step shape due to the difference from the 2nd cam lobe profile which kicks in for higher rpm power. If the tuner can smooth out that step curve more than it will be better as the pulling power/sensation will be more linear from lower to higher rpm.

As for your target of 240-250whp from a 2ltr B20 engine and remain driveable on the street, I think it's a bit too ambitious if you are using NA approach. I think you need to use forced induction to reach that sort of power.

 

[ddv_nk12]

In general, the more linear the shape of the torque curve, the better drivability you will experience but I guess for VTEC small engines like yours, most likely it will still have that staircase step shape due to the difference from the 2nd cam lobe profile which kicks in for higher rpm power. If the tuner can smooth out that step curve more than it will be better as the pulling power/sensation will be more linear from lower to higher rpm.

As for your target of 240-250whp from a 2ltr B20 engine and remain driveable on the street, I think it's a bit too ambitious if you are using NA approach. I think you need to use forced induction to reach that sort of power.

I get it now. My mech told me that if I use a suitable camshaft I should get a more linear torque curve. He also said with a hi cam, the VTEC pull won't be so obvious as compared to now. I remember him saying something like this.

Ok. Yeah. Come to think about it, 240-250whp is too ambitious. I think I must have been influenced by one of the guys in Honda-tech who has this as his signature:

250WHP for All-Built, 450WHP for Forced Induction and that's only for a start

Something like this if I remember correctly. HAHA.

So, what would be the ideal WHP I can achieve?

 

[6UE5t]

...
You call this a non-expert explanation?? For me, this is damn good already la bro. TYVM. To tell you the truth, I was not too happy about the outcome until I read your explanation. Now, I'm happy. Hehe..

Seriously I'm no where near an expert in automotive! Cars is just a little interest/hobby for me, nothing more, and I'm still struggling to save more money and can only dream of playing with relatively fast cars like yours.
Glad if I can be of any help though.

 

[ddv_nk12]

Not expert but good enough already. You have been a great help to me. Cars are also something I love, it's just that I started serious learning about them as what I'm doing now after I got this car. Hehe. Before this was more like service on time and I'm done. Hehe. Its good that you started early. May your wish of playing with a fast car come true. Just to correct you, my car is not fast. I am just hoping to make it faster. That's all. Thanks a lot mate.

 

[6UE5t]

I get it now. My mech told me that if I use a suitable camshaft I should get a more linear torque curve. He also said with a hi cam, the VTEC pull won't be so obvious as compared to now. I remember him saying something like this.

Ok. Yeah. Come to think about it, 240-250whp is too ambitious. I think I must have been influenced by one of the guys in Honda-tech who has this as his signature:


Something like this if I remember correctly. HAHA.

So, what would be the ideal WHP I can achieve?

Max power is not always the best to target for. Like your tuner had adviced you, it's better to focus first on smoothing out your power curves as this is the one that you feel the most when you drive it everyday. A very high max power does not necessarily means it will be faster ALL the time on the street/in real driving conditions since in many cases in order to gain even higher power means sacrificing more performance in the lower-mid rpm range which is where you actually has the most use every day. Remember that in order to get to 8000rpm you need to pass through 5000-6000 rpms, so if your lower rpms are weaker then you may actually be slower! It may be a different case if you use the car only for racing whereby you striped out the car to be as light as possible, use short gear ratios, and always shift up in those stratospheric rpms! :)

---------- Post added at 01:26 AM ---------- 6 hour anti-bump limit - Previous post was at 01:19 AM ----------

Not expert but good enough already. You have been a great help to me. Cars are also something I love, it's just that I started serious learning about them as what I'm doing now after I got this car. Hehe. Before this was more like service on time and I'm done. Hehe. Its good that you started early. May your wish of playing with a fast car come true. Just to correct you, my car is not fast. I am just hoping to make it faster. That's all. Thanks a lot mate.

Hehehe, I'm actually still considering if I really want to buy an Evo IX now or not! Save more money for my kids school or just try out to own what is basically a very fast 4WD street legal rally machine for just 1-2 years!

 

[ddv_nk12]

Agreed. Coming to think about it, I also need to consider FC as I use this car quite a lot especially when I travel long distance.

Don't rush into things. Evo IX equals serious commitment. Take it slow. Don't be like me. Every thing I spend on the car is impulsive without thinking about tomorrow. Hehe. Btw, I have a friend wanting to sell his Evo VII if you are interested. All I can say is that Evo VII is a monster and beauty. More like beauty and the beast in one.

 

[Izso]

ddv : Don't get dissapointed with dyno figures. It's nothing more than a piece of paper!

What's important is how it makes you feel and how it drives after the mods. If it works and makes you smile after whacking the gears in then it's a pretty good thing.

For NA cars to get above 100bhp is an achievement? Uh.. I disagree! Especially since yours is a 2.0. For a 1.3 to get above 100bhp going the NA route perhaps, but not for a 2.0 ler.

 

[AD_EG]

the hp figures bro, no need pay so much attention... just mod according to your budget..adn till the day u r sattisfied or feel the car has suffcient power to your personal preference.

since you got ur car tuned alr...u shouldnt do port n polish or cam installation so soon..then ull just waste the tune. focus on maybe a better clutch...trinity/exedy racing clutch,lighten flywheel...and maybe 4.6 final drive for your gearbox. and get better tires....go pasir gudang test again...see if ur happy with the result(i think you will)...then port n polish,cams, set cams, and retune ...this all must be done at the same time.

 

[ddv_nk12]

ddv : Don't get dissapointed with dyno figures. It's nothing more than a piece of paper!

What's important is how it makes you feel and how it drives after the mods. If it works and makes you smile after whacking the gears in then it's a pretty good thing.

For NA cars to get above 100bhp is an achievement? Uh.. I disagree! Especially since yours is a 2.0. For a 1.3 to get above 100bhp going the NA route perhaps, but not for a 2.0 ler.

Initially, I was disappointed. But after seeing the comments from you guys here, it made me feel better. I know the money spent did not go to waste.

Mind to tell how many BHP would be considered an achievement for a 2L? When I read back the previous comments, I don't see anyone mentioning about that la? Or I must have missed it between the lines. Just got up. My "ECU" still not registered yet.

 

[Izso]

I wouldn't know. Haven't had the opportunity to mod a 2L yet.

The thing is a stock standard NA 2L car (most) can wipe out most modded NA 1.3/1.5/1.6 cars. Don't talk about 1.8, that one is hard to say. So using that logic, a 2L NA can do so much more given the right budget and parts.

A stroker to 2.4L perhaps? High compression? Aggressive cams?

 

[6UE5t]

ddv : Don't get dissapointed with dyno figures. It's nothing more than a piece of paper!

What's important is how it makes you feel and how it drives after the mods. If it works and makes you smile after whacking the gears in then it's a pretty good thing.

For NA cars to get above 100bhp is an achievement? Uh.. I disagree! Especially since yours is a 2.0. For a 1.3 to get above 100bhp going the NA route perhaps, but not for a 2.0 ler.

I said 100HP/LITER (of engine displacement), not 100HP as an absolute value! :) So for a 2ltr car then try to get 200HP. How many NA cars on the streets today can reach 100HP/ltr? Still very few only right? Mostly all considered high performance/sports car already, like Honda Type-R, all current Ferraris, Lambos, some Porsches, M Power Bimmers. :) But again max power numbers be it HP/ltr only tells just part of the story, more important is how linear the power is produced cause that determines the way it drives. That's why many car manufacturers still do not make engines reaching 100HP/ltr, the most obvious example is Mercedes, but their cars are still plenty fast and pulls like mad due to the very fat torque from big2 engines.