DIY porting Throttle Body( 4g15 siemens)

[seanlee]

feel free to share this with you all...from WAC..hahaha

i tried as well very long time ago..so now comfirm no problem ..really give lot of different...By enlarging abit from 45mm - 48mm, smoothen Edge.....

Dun worry, will not interrupt your ecu..as will learn..

hope you guys can have it as well..:_: after done please do share...

-WISE Auto Club Forum- -> D.I.Y - throttle body porting

 

[prototypes]

bro, unfortunately your ecu can only learn to certain limit. because when the ecu does the correction, there are upper limits and lower limits. anything beyond that will cause the ecu to go ku-ku...

the air volumes increases, the airflow increases, but the fuel pressure can only go up to a limit whereby anything more will cause the a/r to mess up!

 

[seanlee]

bro, unfortunately your ecu can only learn to certain limit. because when the ecu does the correction, there are upper limits and lower limits. anything beyond that will cause the ecu to go ku-ku...

the air volumes increases, the airflow increases, but the fuel pressure can only go up to a limit whereby anything more will cause the a/r to mess up!

ya i know..but doing this porting will not increase air flow ..just smoothen the flowo nly...therfore increase respond..not power..and yet we are not turbo charging the car....if turbo charging..the only thing you can do in SIemens is add on Piggyback Emanage will do...for Fueling control..

 

[zulu]

E-damage!!!

 

[prototypes]

can show us your equations and calculations? Mr. Einstein?

 

[seanlee]

can show us your equations and calculations? Mr. Einstein?

me not Einstein lar..just playing around with my car nia....just only cost less tehn RM 10.00 modding..also a DIy thing....so you may try yourself...

 

[xtorm]

dun need to do anything to the butterfly?

 

[prototypes]

me not Einstein lar..just playing around with my car nia....just only cost less tehn RM 10.00 modding..also a DIy thing....so you may try yourself...

bro. that's exactly my point! i'm just worry of spending less ending up spending lots! anyway, have fun!

 

[seanlee]

dun need to do anything to the butterfly?

we did not ported and polish that area...just that the front part which have abit of resistence on the edge smoothen th area..polist untill shape like trumpet type..smooth egde...which nicrease respond better.....or maybe someday...i will show it in TT or maybe WAC DIY day...here the PIC one of the member TB that have done.http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/4881/portedtbkn9.jpg

 

[skyrap]

ya i know..but doing this porting will not increase air flow ..just smoothen the flowo nly...therfore increase respond..not power..and yet we are not turbo charging the car....if turbo charging..the only thing you can do in SIemens is add on Piggyback Emanage will do...for Fueling control..

piggyback e-manage??? can't install le... only dyno jet piggyback will do for siemens...by the way, although is smoothen the flow but the siemens ECU might have fault code and check light might occur..unless you change to mitsubishi throtle, wiring, and ECU then you can enlarge as you like...:regular_smile:

 

[seanlee]

piggyback e-manage??? can't install le... only dyno jet piggyback will do for siemens...by the way, although is smoothen the flow but the siemens ECU might have fault code and check light might occur..unless you change to mitsubishi throtle, wiring, and ECU then you can enlarge as you like...:regular_smile:

Emanage can be done in siemens...as well SAFC2 can be done....you can check with N1 or Millenium workshop in Sunway....but ofcrouse some limited area only..but Air and fuel maping can be adjust from there...i met in one Wira 1.5 aerobak run on SAFC2 and reviewed Satria SE siemens Emanage need to for his turbo..0.4bar boosting this owner you can look for nickname (Moxt).....more information you can get also from Prohatch...as well..anyway they are daring to try..and yet result is good ..haha

by the way..few of us who drove siemens car...also smooth and porting on our TB...remember not enlarge our TB so untill now no engine faulty or engine light on....if yu wan to do to so...you can install SGTI siemens TB....to your car..but Trohttle learning have to set from PDT 2000....

anyway..MMC throttle body can`t put in our Siemens car lar....

 

[skyrap]

yet it can be done but the ignition can't be done only..piggyback dyno jet are fully utilise with sienmens and SAFC 2 is always can be done... moxt is my friend, he never put an e-manage... they are daring to try, at the end his(moxt) engine change to stock liao......

by the way you said that "MMC throttle body can`t put in our Siemens car lar"?? if you change the MMC wiring and the whole throttle body, yes it can put in..

 

[seanlee]

yet it can be done but the ignition can't be done only..piggyback dyno jet are fully utilise with sienmens and SAFC 2 is always can be done... moxt is my friend, he never put an e-manage... they are daring to try, at the end his(moxt) engine change to stock liao......

by the way you said that "MMC throttle body can`t put in our Siemens car lar"?? if you change the MMC wiring and the whole throttle body, yes it can put in..

heheh MOxt selling his car soon.....anyway i have a set of MMC injection kit..interested?...yes MMC Tb can put but alot thing need to be done..as you mention wiring and otherthing...but no cheap to do this convert..

 

[skyrap]

heheh MOxt selling his car soon.....anyway i have a set of MMC injection kit..interested?...yes MMC Tb can put but alot thing need to be done..as you mention wiring and otherthing...but no cheap to do this convert..

yup...erm..i waiting for free stuff...might not thinking about it first...hehe..those MMC u can find it cheap around RM600 included MMC ECU, if u saw those ppl need to convert their engine u can can buy from them ma....

 

[jswong]

How come some people are so wrapped up in increasing horsepower that they're cynical about improving driveability?

So far, my ported TB hasn't given any problems but the throttle response is much better. Fuel consumption didn't suffer much either.

The engine is still NA, a ported throttle body won't affect an increase in air intake so much. Air just goes in with lesser restriction, so that you can hold a speed better with lesser throttle pressure. Remember that for Siemens ECU, your injectors will go full-blast at near-WOT and WOT conditions. Reducing the incidences in which you have to floor the throttle all the way will even help with your fuel consumption!

The only thing I can see that is affected before-and-after from the viewpoint of the ECU is that the MAP sensor will probably detect a lower vacuum at most rev points, and a sudden increase in rev will only cause a high-vacuum condition for a lesser duration. Thus it will sense that the engine is facing lesser load. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[jswong]

can show us your equations and calculations? Mr. Einstein?

If you had paid attention in college during engineering maths you'll know that it's a simple solution.

The butterfly area remains unchanged at approximately 40mm. The original TB opening size is 45mm, the ported TB is 50mm.

Butterfly area = 12.56cm^2
Original throttle opening area = 15.9cm^2
Ported throttle opening area = 19.6cm^2

(Increase in opening area = 23.27%.. this will affect the CFM value if we want to use if for calculations).

But let's just look at it in terms of percentage, without considering the measurement units. Let the velocity of the air after the TB = v2, and the velocity of incoming air = v1. The increase or decrease in gas velocity when moving from one cross-sectional area can be simplified as

v2=(A1/A2)*v1

if we don't integrate the airflow over the reducing/increasing radius, and if we consider an ideal airflow model without turbulence.

Original differential in airflow before and after the throttle body
= (15.9/12.56)*100% = 126.6%

That's a 26.6% increase in gas velocity entering the throttle body.

Differential in airflow with ported TB
= (19.6/12.56)*100% = 156.05%

That's a 56% increase in gas velocity from the intake pipe into the intake manifold!

Therefore, a ported throttle body opening (with stock-standard butterfly area) will increase the gas velocity entering the intake manifold at any given vacuum level compared to a stock standard TB opening.

Q.E.D.

 

[aquado]

I guess it's about same concept as CAI - colder air: more oxigen
larger intake - in some way allowing more oxigen intake.

I guess fuel consumption should be better. But then not confident to port it without under proper guidance...

 

[xtorm]

If you had paid attention in college during engineering maths you'll know that it's a simple solution.

The butterfly area remains unchanged at approximately 40mm. The original TB opening size is 45mm, the ported TB is 50mm.

Butterfly area = 12.56cm^2
Original throttle opening area = 15.9cm^2
Ported throttle opening area = 19.6cm^2

(Increase in opening area = 23.27%.. this will affect the CFM value if we want to use if for calculations).

But let's just look at it in terms of percentage, without considering the measurement units. Let the velocity of the air after the TB = v2, and the velocity of incoming air = v1. The increase or decrease in gas velocity when moving from one cross-sectional area can be simplified as

v2=(A1/A2)*v1

if we don't integrate the airflow over the reducing/increasing radius, and if we consider an ideal airflow model without turbulence.

Original differential in airflow before and after the throttle body
= (15.9/12.56)*100% = 126.6%

That's a 26.6% increase in gas velocity entering the throttle body.

Differential in airflow with ported TB
= (19.6/12.56)*100% = 156.05%

That's a 56% increase in gas velocity from the intake pipe into the intake manifold!

Therefore, a ported throttle body opening (with stock-standard butterfly area) will increase the gas velocity entering the intake manifold at any given vacuum level compared to a stock standard TB opening.

Q.E.D.

:retarded: :shocked: keng......

if the throttle body didnt change in size, it shouldnt effect it too much, instead the air get in much easier and lesser throttle is needed

 

[jswong]

Well, as we know, the area of a circle is a function of its radius squared. A small increase in radius can result in a sudden jump in area.

I guess that when porting the TB, we can do it either one of two ways:

1) Enlarge only the inlet, to increase of gas velocity going into the intake manifold (hence reduce incidences of sluggish throttle response since the intake manifold fills up faster)

2) Enlarge the TB inlet and outlet, and enlarge the intake manifold's inlet as well. This will result in more air volume at all times. I guess this would be more beneficial if the engine head is also ported and gasket-matched accordingly, hence it's able to breathe better and would require more airflow.

As for whether or not the increase in airflow will cause the engine to run 'too lean' - it won't, for the simple reason that even with a self-learning ECU like the Siemens EMS400 or EMS700, the engine is running an almost-stoichiometric mix only from idling to around 3000 or 3500 rpm. Above that, the AFR drops to 12:1 or lesser.

Running at 15:1 or 16:1 is not 'too lean'. Peak power happens at an AFR of roughly 12.1:1, while peak fuel efficiency (while ensuring complete combustion or air and fuel) occurs at 15.4:1. 14.7:1, the stoichiometric ratio, is just a weight-to-weight ratio for complete burn.

If the engine block can bleed off heat quickly enough, a normal engine can operate up to 22:1 AFR (but not for too long). GDI engines typically run at AFRs far above 20:1.. Mitsubishi's do it at 40:1 or even 45:1. Honda's can run as lean as 65:1.

Maybe in our fathers' time, with primitive technology and outdated 'textbook knowledge', the wisdom of the day is to run at AFRs no higher than stoichiometry, and preferably at a rich setting like 12:1 or less. But with modern engine blocks using fuel injection, with lambda monitoring, and plenty of aluminium parts and better engine cooling methods, the rules of yesterday can be bent a wee bit more.