328i Lost to A4T

[jugbugz]

Horsepower is not everything, although they do sell cars! Put an M3 on track against a Hartge 3 series with more horsepower and the M3 will probably still be faster. A modded car doesn't have many stuff available in the M like the brakes, suspension, differentials and weight balance.

On the open road, the Hartge may be faster but anyone with balls can drive fast on a straight public road.

I think M division should continue with their philosophy of building driver's oriented cars, it's what makes them special! Over the years, they have lost the plot slightly as they want to sell cars. The original E30 M3 and the M1 are street-legal race cars!

Lastly, there is nothing like driving a manual car. I have fun every time driving my Mk2 Golf with a small puny 1.8 engine :regular_smile:

Sorry, I don't think the E46 M3 has a chance against the E90 Hartge V10 3 series. I've driven the E90 and the chassis etc is a lot better than the E46. E46 M3 brakes sucks pretty bad and can't even cope to handle it's stock form. That's why a lot of people change the M3's brakes and suspension for track use. It's good but not enough.

Hartge would'nt just throw a V10 engine and then not mod the chassis or suspesion, brakes etc. Hartge did this to show BMW that they are really slow. BMW's new upcoming V8 M3 is only going to have 400hp. The E46 already has 343hp. Even a slightly supercharged E46 M3 @ 5psi would have 420hp and torque that would match or surpass the new V8. Sorry but.. I rather spend money on a 330 and mod that. Even if I pay less, I will have a better car than the M3.

When I heard BMW was only coming up with 400hp for the M3 i was pretty disapointed. Holdens and Fords over hear are already surpassing the 400hp mark and cost half or 1/3 of the price. In power sense it's pretty disapointing. BMW would have to improve the handling drastically inorder to compensate. And with all this new technology coming up like the active steering etc. Not many people are impressed.

BMW's M division should be doing what AMG are doing. Look at the SL65 AMG with 603hp and 1000Nm. See ya later M6. Look at the M6. With so much hype especially stating that it's the 'ultimate ultimate driving machine' hauhuahauh I was laughing. Understated looks that look like a pussy cat compared to the AMGs. It could've been much better especially when they stated that the chassis is better than the M5. So why don't they put more power into the engine? $300,000AUD+ rather buy the 997 Porsche Turbo or the SL55 AMG.

And where do you drive most of the time? The track or road? Not everyone can be a race star... most people are happy with flooring the pedal with all that torque behind you. hehe.

But you are right about the E30 M3(200-240hp). Some still say it's the best M3 yet.

And oh yeah.. don't get me wrong.. I like BMW's... it's just that they know they can make power figures like AMG but they don't. Many cars on the road these days can knock off a stock E46 M3 with 1/6 of the price. I just hope they don't loose the plot. They're lucky that theres so many BMW aftermarket tuner's out there boosting about with their cars.. anyone who's played with the BMW's engine would know how capable it is. Jap engine's can't compare to the reliability, strength, engineering, etc. of the BMW engines.

BTW... Alpina's Supercharged 545i steptronic got rated better than the new V10 M5 in all areas in BMW CAR mag. It had 500bhp and 700+Nm and better looks too.. It's a shame.... the aftermarket tuner's are depreciating the M division.

C'MON BMW!!!!

 

[jugbugz]

Hey GUYS!!!!
Don't let this thread die!!!!
Let's keep it going!!!!!

 

[si|verfish]

jugbugz, I like your comments. Proves you are not another insane BMW fanboy nut.

BTW, about the new E90 M3. Is it "only" going to have 400bhp? Its a 4.5 litre V8 they are sticking under the bonnet, isn't it? I'd expect at least 450bhp. With "only" 400bhp going to the rear wheels and that droopy fat body of the E90s, I can already see all the RS4s smirking all the way back to Ingolstadt.

 

[jugbugz]

jugbugz, I like your comments. Proves you are not another insane BMW fanboy nut.

BTW, about the new E90 M3. Is it "only" going to have 400bhp? Its a 4.5 litre V8 they are sticking under the bonnet, isn't it? I'd expect at least 450bhp. With "only" 400bhp going to the rear wheels and that droopy fat body of the E90s, I can already see all the RS4s smirking all the way back to Ingolstadt.

Actually it's a 4.0 V8 400bhp. It's the same engine as the 5.0 V10 but with 2 cylinders removed.

Note that BMW engineered the V10 to produce 50bhp for each 500cc cylinder. This was their target. I heard that they made more but detuned it to make exactly 50bhp for each 500cc which equals 500bhp out of a 5.0 V10. Makes sense hey... This just shows how much of the great engineering that BMW are capable of. I haven't heard of any other manufacturers with such detailed targets.

So yeah.. the M3 will be a 4.0 V8 with 400bhp. Mine you that your statement of 400bhp going through the wheels isn't correct.
A car with 400bhp at engine would only make about 320 Rear wheel hp.

And stacks of force inducted BMW's are making like that or more. A 8psi supercharged 330 with right tuning can make 280rwhp. E36 M3's with 5.5psi supercharged already makes 355rwhp. Mine's already should be making around 255-270rwhp. A stock E46 M3 makes 253rwhp. These are all running 98 octane fuel ofcourse.

That's why I get pissed at BMW when they make understated power figures compared with the likes of AMG and AUDI. It's BS!

But like I said... The BMW engines are really nice to modify.

I had a look at the S4 the other day and said 'how the F.... are you going to modify that?' You can't even stick your hand between anything. say goodbye to superchargers. RS4's are good.

BTW guys, I got some new pics of my car and engine and my ASA supercharger.
here's the link. Happy browsing!!
http://au.msnusers.com/jugbugz/shoebox.msnw?Page=1

 

[si|verfish]

Actually it's a 4.0 V8 400bhp. It's the same engine as the 5.0 V10 but with 2 cylinders removed.

Note that BMW engineered the V10 to produce 50bhp for each 500cc cylinder. This was their target. I heard that they made more but detuned it to make exactly 50bhp for each 500cc which equals 500bhp out of a 5.0 V10. Makes sense hey... This just shows how much of the great engineering that BMW are capable of. I haven't heard of any other manufacturers with such detailed targets.

I see. I thought they were using the old 4.5 V8 they have. Or is it 4.6? Nevermind...

So yeah.. the M3 will be a 4.0 V8 with 400bhp. Mine you that your statement of 400bhp going through the wheels isn't correct.
A car with 400bhp at engine would only make about 320 Rear wheel hp.

Yeah, I know that, it is a figure of speech, not a technical description. As in it makes 400bhp and it is rear wheel drive.

 

[jugbugz]

I see. I thought they were using the old 4.5 V8 they have. Or is it 4.6? Nevermind...

4.6 and 4.8 V8's are the BMW engines not M. The only V8 M has got is in the E39 M5 which is 5.0 V8 400bhp 520Nm.


Yeah, I know that, it is a figure of speech, not a technical description. As in it makes 400bhp and it is rear wheel drive.

That's ok, I thought so.

 

[boggysv]

I haven't heard of any other manufacturers with such detailed targets.

That's why I get pissed at BMW when they make understated power figures compared with the likes of AMG and AUDI. It's BS!

either you are always reading only about bmw and not enough of the other manufacturers, or you just dont want to acknowledge them.


understated power figures? AMG does that, Audi does that, Porsche does that...manage to find them out, and I might just send you a candy:_:

THe B5 S4 was a gem to mod, Audi's step to go with NA V8 was a disappointing news to most anthusiast.

And on the contary, I heard lots of horror stories from sc'ed e46 m3 owners. not many of them dare to use it as a daily commuter. I suppose that I am happy that bmw is finally venturing into turbo platforms? As much as I enjoy driving, I am sadly stuck in traffic jams most of the time, so, unless bmw starts making better interiors, my plan to go for a A4 remains unchanged.

have fun with your car. right now, I'm stuck with buses.

 

[Ingolstadt]

hmm... you planning to go A4? which ? Very interested here.

Anyway, i actually hated the power craze deployed by recent manufacturers, they're not upping the ante by puttin in more genuine, original ideas, they're just adding in more and more power... for god's sake, why would anyone need a 2+2 grand tourer with 600hps? They're doing it for the sake of marketing and selling it. I still perfer those E30 M3s with 200+ hp, manual gearboxes, light, agile and small. Anyone saw the Smart ForTwo with the Suzuki superbike engine? That is the thrill i'm talking. :)

 

[boggysv]

hmm... you planning to go A4? which ? Very interested here.

Anyway, i actually hated the power craze deployed by recent manufacturers, they're not upping the ante by puttin in more genuine, original ideas, they're just adding in more and more power... for god's sake, why would anyone need a 2+2 grand tourer with 600hps? They're doing it for the sake of marketing and selling it. I still perfer those E30 M3s with 200+ hp, manual gearboxes, light, agile and small. Anyone saw the Smart ForTwo with the Suzuki superbike engine? That is the thrill i'm talking. :)

the b7 2.0tqm.
I had a b5, and I liked the b6, and test driven the b7 and was just disappointed cvt unit in malaysia. Waiting to test drive the manual version when i get the chance.

I dont mind the power craze...healthy competition. But if I bought a car for power alone, I'd rather get a jap.

 

[HanJackaL]

Why cant you just buy the M3 then super charge it instead of buying 330 CI and supercharged?U will get more power out of a super charged M3 right ?

 

[jugbugz]

Why cant you just buy the M3 then super charge it instead of buying 330 CI and supercharged?U will get more power out of a super charged M3 right ?

If your refering to me.. I like M3's but having a model under the M3 and leaving it behind at the lights is what I want. Plus there the premium between a 330 and M3. This extra cash is for modding.
:)

 

[jugbugz]

either you are always reading only about bmw and not enough of the other manufacturers, or you just dont want to acknowledge them.

Mate.. Don't take me as a BMW fan boy nut craze guy..
I was refering the detailed targets to the 50bhp per 500cc on the V10 5.0 M5.

In the power wars game BMW is losing out to the likes of Merc etc. These days most people who buys these things is for the power. It's Power per Dollar. Note that I stated the similarities in price within the BMW models.

understated power figures? AMG does that, Audi does that, Porsche does that...manage to find them out, and I might just send you a candy:_:

I guess you took what I said in the wrong way.. I meant underpowered. Oh.. and you forgot to mention the Japs...

THe B5 S4 was a gem to mod, Audi's step to go with NA V8 was a disappointing news to most anthusiast.

I was refering to the N/A S4. RS4 is good.

And on the contary, I heard lots of horror stories from sc'ed e46 m3 owners. not many of them dare to use it as a daily commuter. I suppose that I am happy that bmw is finally venturing into turbo platforms? As much as I enjoy driving, I am sadly stuck in traffic jams most of the time, so, unless bmw starts making better interiors, my plan to go for a A4 remains unchanged.

That's funny... BMW engines are much stronger than Japs and can run an AFR of 12-13 on Forced Induction.
A lot of them are probally poorly tuned. You can tune any engine in any way you like as long as you understand it and do it right. It's not hard when you are running 95-100% octane. I run 98. Those horror stories if you note.. they would be running 91-93 octane which is not recomended even with the newer jap cars these days. I've heard of a turbo'd M3 and that engine blew because of poor fuel and misjudgement in thinking by adding more fuel to enrich the AFR mixture.

If your looking for interior, turn to merc. For driving pleasure, look elsewhere. Personally I don't like the characteristics of the Audi cars. It's more in between Merc and BMW, hasn't matched BMW yet in terms of chassis, handling, balance etc, especially compared to the M division. Engine's are good though. Latest V10 5.2 420bhp sounds old in figure.

have fun with your car. right now, I'm stuck with buses.

I'm having lots of fun with it. :)

 

[boggysv]

That's funny... BMW engines are much stronger than Japs and can run an AFR of 12-13 on Forced Induction.
A lot of them are probally poorly tuned. You can tune any engine in any way you like as long as you understand it and do it right. It's not hard when you are running 95-100% octane. I run 98. Those horror stories if you note.. they would be running 91-93 octane which is not recomended even with the newer jap cars these days. I've heard of a turbo'd M3 and that engine blew because of poor fuel and misjudgement in thinking by adding more fuel to enrich the AFR mixture.

well, I do not own a force inducted M3, so I cant make any claims. It's just that on the audi boards I visit, I often see owners linking to stories of a M3 engine problem, either their own or a friends. They seem to be a technical bunch,but maybe it was biased...
(not to mention audi has it's own fair share of fried turbos and blown hoses too)

nobody can deny that the M3 has a very high compresison ratio to begin with. simply adding more air and fuel in there is very risky business. Anyways, imho, the M3 is overplayed in malaysia. Debadge a S4 and nobody would suspect a thing:_:

*btw, merc interior is just not my cup of tea

 

[si|verfish]

Engine's are good though. Latest V10 5.2 420bhp sounds old in figure.

Me thinks that is just product placement, they need to make room for the RS versions. Just like what Prosche does with the Cayman and Boxster, trying very hard not to upset their own applecart by upstaging the 911 in performance figures, which the Cayman had all likelihood of doing.

 

[zoggee]

whoa..!!! its been a long time since I log on here.... Nice discussion here eh..??

 

[jugbugz]

Me thinks that is just product placement, they need to make room for the RS versions. Just like what Prosche does with the Cayman and Boxster, trying very hard not to upset their own applecart by upstaging the 911 in performance figures, which the Cayman had all likelihood of doing.

That's true but why not atleast up around 460-480bhp? 5.2 V10 with 420bhp is pretty underpowered for such engine with that capacity and cylinders if you compare with aussie V8's. Let's see what they can do with twin turbos.. :)

 

[jugbugz]

well, I do not own a force inducted M3, so I cant make any claims. It's just that on the audi boards I visit, I often see owners linking to stories of a M3 engine problem, either their own or a friends. They seem to be a technical bunch,but maybe it was biased...
(not to mention audi has it's own fair share of fried turbos and blown hoses too)

nobody can deny that the M3 has a very high compresison ratio to begin with. simply adding more air and fuel in there is very risky business. Anyways, imho, the M3 is overplayed in malaysia. Debadge a S4 and nobody would suspect a thing:_:

*btw, merc interior is just not my cup of tea

Well blowing an M3 engine is obviously due to poor judgement and tuning. Everyone knows it can safely be boosted to 5.5psi without lowering the compression.. that would give you about 350rwhp on a dyno dynamics and 390rwhp on a dynojet.

i admit back few years ago it was a hard process but now these days you hear and see many FI M3's around the world going beyond 5.5psi to around 9+psi. I saw a dyno sheet from ESS Tuning which had a S/C E46 M3 on 9psi that made 490rwhp on a dynojet dyno. These days it's easy.. :) But don't know how long the engine would last as BMW engineers said the S54 engine is already quite stressed as it is N/A.

Gdluck to all those owners of FI M3's. :)

 

[jugbugz]

whoa..!!! its been a long time since I log on here.... Nice discussion here eh..??

Nice drift... is that yours?? :)

 

[jugbugz]

BTW guys..

I just finished my dyno yesterday and was surprissed..

It made 273.5rwhp / 203.9rwkw on dyno dynamics @ 6.3psi... if I'm right that about 300rwhp on a dynojet dyno... :D Pretty cool considering it's a steptronic... I still gotta add 1 more psi which would hopefully break the 300rwhp... :)

click the link on my signature and browse to page 2 to see the dyno sheets.

 

[zoggee]

Nice drift... is that yours?? :)

yeap....:cyclops:

You really know ur stuff eh..???:regular_smile: