Warped Front Disc Rotors

[weikee]

The first generation z33 and all the murano come with single pot caliper with bigger disc. For master cylinder you need to lepak more in chop shop. Most nissan one will work but you need to get the bigger one with the correct location of hose (or near the same). The master cylinder have a number imprint, like 16/15, 1 1/8, and 14/15. Not very sure what the measurement (think is diameter) but the bigger the number it mean bigger / stronger the cylinder it offer. usually the skyline and silvia have a bigger number.

 

[12savefuel]

Thanks for the info. So the pump size is also the same for Nissan as I know Honda size is also measured like that. From what I know in Honda its printed on the side of the master pump cylinder itself. I go and take a look at my car and see if its printed there.

 

[weikee]

Yes, think this is the standard. A32 master cylinder have 2 output only, cause it will split from the ABS pump, but if you find one that are bigger but come with 3 output you can seal one of it. Just make sure you seal the correct one. The Front and Rear output have difference pressure.

 

[12savefuel]

Ok thanks.

 

[sb3]

Hi all I replied that I also had a problem with rotor warpage in 2008. I think I may have finally solve my problem. I went to get a new set of rotors for my A32 3.0L. To my surprise I noticed that the 3.0L discs were much thicker than the ones I had. So I said to the shop let me see the 2.0L and the 2.0L rotor was much thinner than the 3.0L. I went to check my warped rotor and the min. thickness in 20mm and measured is 21.2mm. The new rotor min thickness is 24mm and new is 26.2mm. It is so much thicker and will be able to dissipate much more heat and there will be much less heat shock loading to the rotors cause it has much more metal. So the factory fitted the wrong discs as I had this problem since day 1 even with new rotors it would judder after 20,000km and dealt with this problem for 13years!

So if any one wants to try out my new setup, rotors are made by TRW RM145/pc. 1set RM145x2= RM290. Bendix General CT RM95. Make sure you get the 3.0L disc and measure that its 26.2mm thick.

Bendix General CT, highly recommended for the price you pay. Really good bang for the buck brake pads. Lives up to the description that the titanium coating help faster bed in and is good straight out of the box. With new rotors and pads, the braking power is already good. Just run in the pad for about 50km of slowing down 60-40km/h, 80-60km/h , 100-60km/h, 110-60km/h, 110-40km/h and 120-40km/h. With some time for the brakes to cool. Do it at night and on highway is the best.

Breaking power feels about 20-30% better than OE and the bite and the smoothness of the pad is really good. The breaking power is the same or slightly more than the OE Nissan Akibono and the EBC Kevlar pads that I have tried.

Will update again when the car has done 20,000km and see if my problem comes back.

Bro, where can I get the TRW discs (3.0L) ? Do they sell the rear as well?

 

[12savefuel]

Bro, where can I get the TRW discs (3.0L) ? Do they sell the rear as well?

I didn't ask if they had the rears, I think they should have. I got th discs from:
UI Auto Parts Supply
13,Jln Pengulas U1/75
Light Industrial Park,
Shah Alam 40000
Tel: 03-5518-5788, 5510-5788, 6788

I think they wont have the stock there, they only had 2.0L there. But they can order in quite fast, usually in afew hours or with in a day. Its near the Shah Alam Stadium or Glenmarie.

I got the Bendix general Ct from PJ Mater Auto Ent. In sea park facing Shell station same row as Maybank.

So far I have done about 1700km on the new discs and bendix General CT pads. No problems and works well. But the pad has not fully bedded in as i travel highway most of the way. I have about 10% of the (inside portion) of the pad left to bed in as you can see the rest had bedded in by the look of the disc. The pedal feel of this proper 3.0L disc and new brake pads feels really good. The pedal feels high, firm and solid how a proper brake pedal should feel like. I also have a set of teflon steel braided hoses fitted as well. But the hoses were done long time ago.

When I first changed the pads and discs I used a vacuum brake bleeder to change and brake fluid. Flushed out the system with 1Liter of Bosch dot 4 brake fluid RM25/1Ltr frm (Pj Auto Master). Then drove the car. Until yesterday where I decided to re-bleed the brakes as I always find that the vacuum brake bleeder never does a good job (still a little spongy/soft). But I didn't have any choice as I DIY and only had myself then. So yesterday I had help and I did the 2 man/manual way.

The secret to bleeding brakes is once you have done the "general" bleeding of RL>RR>FL>FR. Then let the car sit for 1/2 hr to 1 hr for the remaining bubbles to either travel and bubble up to the caliper bleeder or back up and out through the master pump. Once you let it sit then bleed again. This time with the engine on so you can create enough pressure. Here is the secret.

When the person ask to pump the brakes-do so

Hold-and the person hold with quite some pressure.

The person releasing the bleeder screw MUST MUST MUST release and tighten the bleeder screw before the person in the car feels the pedal go to the floor.

The pedal MUST MUST only travel 1/2 distance and stop (because the person has closed off the bleeder screw). Don't let the pedal hit the floor.

Why? Because when you let the pedal hit the floor there is no longer any pressure going out of the system and bubbles can re-entre through the thread of bleeder screw or through the nipple itself. So when you open and close (quickly) you have positive pressure still going out of the system so nothing can get back in. This also stops any possibility of the person slightly releasing the pedal before the person had the chance to fully close the nipple, which can cause air to re-entre the system.

The fluid which comes out should be clear and 100% bubble free.

If you do it properly it will ALWAYS give excellent pedal feel. Even more solid and firm if you have done it properly and you have a set of teflon steel braided hoses fitted.

I have always used this method and it has always worked well for all cars.

So now the million dollar question is: you either DIY or will your friendly mechanic let you do it for him or will the mechanic allow you to tell him what to do as ego is at stake here and some mechanics wont like you to tell them what to do.

 

[sb3]

Wow bro, you are really good at this bleeding brakes thingy . Thanks for the tip and the address of TRW discs. Too bad they don't have the 3.0Ls.

Yeah, I guess mechs have very high egos and usually refuse to listen to car owners like us. You know , Two months ago , my friend's Accord VTEC does not switchover to bigger VTEC cam even when he stomp the throttle past 5600 rpm to the floor. His mech refused to listen to my advice to check the wiring connection from the ECU to the VTEC solenoid. The car was lying at the shop for days. I couldn't bare looking at my friend's murky face , so i decided to test the solenoid for power. Turned out that the wiring from the solenoid was not pulg in to the ECU but was re-routed to nowhere!. Once I've found the ecu pin and plug it in. The VTEC roars like a BIG hungry tiger!

 

[12savefuel]

Wow bro, you are really good at this bleeding brakes thingy . Thanks for the tip and the address of TRW discs. Too bad they don't have the 3.0Ls.

Yeah, I guess mechs have very high egos and usually refuse to listen to car owners like us. You know , Two months ago , my friend's Accord VTEC does not switchover to bigger VTEC cam even when he stomp the throttle past 5600 rpm to the floor. His mech refused to listen to my advice to check the wiring connection from the ECU to the VTEC solenoid. The car was lying at the shop for days. I couldn't bare looking at my friend's murky face , so i decided to test the solenoid for power. Turned out that the wiring from the solenoid was not pulg in to the ECU but was re-routed to nowhere!. Once I've found the ecu pin and plug it in. The VTEC roars like a BIG hungry tiger!

Thanks for the compliments SB3. I started off as a mechanic but not anymore, used to do lot of Jap import cars and lots of tuning and servicing and also a Honda authorised service centre back in the Kah Motor days. Had lots of complaints from customers about spongy brakes and how to improve the situation.

Anyway somebody go and play with the ECU wiring? Or the coupler never connect at the engine side.

Anyway SB3 I see you got a rotary as your avatar. You also a rotary man? I love rotaries. Use to have a FC3S making about 280hp with full HKS barang in it. My favorite is FD3S with TO4S single turbo making 400hp. Just nice for the car.

Ai yah getting carried away. Wrong thread for all this. Its a feiloh forum.

Eh why you sound like so sad that the place don't have the 3.0L disc. You can just call them up in the morning and by afternoon or late morning it will be there already what. No big deal.

 

[sb3]

Like you said bro, 3.0L disc are thicker and firmer. Feels better during high speed braking . More confidence mah.

New year resolution for the feilo .

- Get better braking systems

- Firmer and lower stances (but not rock hard !)

- Replace all the bushings such as : Sway bars, lower controls arms, tie rods, etc for a more firmer but comfortable ride .

Rotary ? I used to wet my bed dreaming about rotaries, hahaha.. Just joking. Can't afford an FC. Used to own an RX-2 & SA. Both have mild ported rotaries with original carbies! Rubber burners on demand! Those days , we were only using thirteens but my SA had 225/60 X 13s !
Tires were not cheap back then. Cost me rm250-00 per tire! BUt the thrill of smokin a BMW 3 series and pissing off the driver was priceless!

Reason for selling; High petrol cost ! Used to live around Kelana Jaya Area. Not enough petrol for return trip from KL during Saturday Nite outing on a RM20-00 leaded petrol ! And that was 10 years ago! Moreover not many mechs have proper knowledge to repair the 12As or 13Bs locally.

Ok, coming back to the feilo thread. How come my brakes felt spongy during sudden but slow braking? Is it due to air bubble trap in the sytem or my servo pump is about to kaput. Taughts?

TIA
SB3.

 

[12savefuel]

Like you said bro, 3.0L disc are thicker and firmer. Feels better during high speed braking . More confidence mah.

New year resolution for the feilo .

- Get better braking systems

- Firmer and lower stances (but not rock hard !)

- Replace all the bushings such as : Sway bars, lower controls arms, tie rods, etc for a more firmer but comfortable ride .

Rotary ? I used to wet my bed dreaming about rotaries, hahaha.. Just joking. Can't afford an FC. Used to own an RX-2 & SA. Both have mild ported rotaries with original carbies! Rubber burners on demand! Those days , we were only using thirteens but my SA had 225/60 X 13s !
Tires were not cheap back then. Cost me rm250-00 per tire! BUt the thrill of smokin a BMW 3 series and pissing off the driver was priceless!

Reason for selling; High petrol cost ! Used to live around Kelana Jaya Area. Not enough petrol for return trip from KL during Saturday Nite outing on a RM20-00 leaded petrol ! And that was 10 years ago! Moreover not many mechs have proper knowledge to repair the 12As or 13Bs locally.

Ok, coming back to the feilo thread. How come my brakes felt spongy during sudden but slow braking? Is it due to air bubble trap in the sytem or my servo pump is about to kaput. Taughts?

TIA
SB3.

It could be that the master pump is failing. To check if it is failing. With the engine on put the car in "D" with A/C off and hold the brake pedal down with firm pressure. Once you hold it there. STOP. Keep the pedal there with the same pressure. If the pedal starts to creep down to the floor, the seal in the master pump is worn and the pump needs changing as soon as possible. Rebuilding the master pump is not advised. New Nissan pump about RM700 taiwan about RM200. A friend said not to use taiwan cause he had a bad experience with it but it was in a volvo.

If the pump is ok. Then you need to change brake fluid and bleed it properly.

Another reason also could be just that you are using standard brake hoses. Standard brake hoses are made of rubber and they expand when you apply pressure which gives the spongy feeling. With the teflon brakes hoses, the plastic teflon hoses do not expand at all so there is no brake pressure loss due to hose expansion. The steel braid is just there to protect the inner teflon hose.

Servo pump failing? You mean to say servo vacuum booster right. If that is failing, it will the the opposite as it will get harder to press the pedal as there is a vacuum leak in the servo thus there will be less assistance from the servo. Just like when the engine is off and there is no vacuum the pedal becomes hard to press. So no I don't think its the brake booster failing.

Most of my experience with spongy brakes. First I check if master pump is ok, then I would change brake fluid and bleed properly as air in the system will cause the system to be "soft" as air is compressible but liquid isn't. Then I would get a set of teflon steel braided hoses.

I would also make sure that the rear brake pads are adjusted properly. For that, most people cheat and adjust the parking brake cable. But to do it properly you need to open up the rear caliper and turn the piston out as the rear caliper pot/piston has a special design. You need to turn it out enough so that the wheel can still spin freely but not stick. As a guide the hand brake should have only about 6-7clicks, anything more its too loose. Anything less its too tight.

Then its just pad thickness and disc thickness. If its worn you brake travel will be more.

Just for your info my A32 3.0L brake system consist of:

Standard calipers, new TRW discs for 3.0L, new Bendix GTC pads (front) rear 50% left. Teflon brake hoses. New brake fluid.

Most of the time sudden spongy feel is caused by air in the system and or failing master pump.

1. check master pump
2. change fluid and bleed properly
3. check pads, discs and parking brake are all with in spec.
4. change to teflon hoses.

As you described your problem as sudden spongy feeling when slow braking e.g. when crawling in traffic jam or talking on HP and driving (hahaha) or moving up to a juction. then i would check the list above.

If its general sponginess even when hard braking, its caused by

1. Air in the system
2. Expanding of standard brake hoses
3. Brake pad material is soft which will compress slightly when under clamping pressure
4. flexing of the floating caliper (also caused by worn floating caliper pins)
5. Poor material and design of caliper which cause caliper to flex.

But No:3-5 will not be your problem as my brakes works well and is really nice and firm.

80-90% of the time its either master pump failing, air in the system or worn out discs and pads.

New cars from the factory with factory stuff don't usually have spongy brakes. Well they do lah when you compare it with teflon hose setup. But when you compare apples to apples its usually pending master pump failure and air in system. As I said most of the people out there don't know how to bleed brakes properly and the stupid vacuum bleeder only does 80% of the job as my car with new pads, discs, parking brake adjusted, teflon braided hoses still felt spongy in the first 10% of brake travel with the stupid vacuum system (but no choice lah 1 man only). So try those things out first then come back with more feedback on how its going for us to help you out.

 

[sb3]

Wow , I should call you the Brakes Doctor lah ! Thanks again man. Would go and check the the master pump and bleed the fluids . Do you recommend dot 3 or 4? What about Dot 5 just for discussion purpose?

Another thing is, when you mentioned about the teflon hoses is it universal fit or have to find the right size for the feilo? Where to get one?

Thanks again..

SB3

 

[weikee]

Use dot 4 will do, and bleed it once every 12 or 18 months.

 

[12savefuel]

Yes weikee is right, use dot4 and change fluid every 12 or18 months. But I rather stick with 12 months or 40,000km.

Dot5 don't use unless specified by manufacturer. Using DOT 5 in a DOT 3 or DOT 4 system without proper flushing will cause damage to the seals and cause brake failure. DOT 5 brake fluid is not compatible with anti-lock brake systems from what i know. Dot 5 is silicone based vs. glycol based and cannot be mixed. I have used heavy duty or super dot4 race spec which still works ok on standard seals. But I just use normal Shell or Bosch dot 4 now as the car never sees such high temps.

Dot5 should only be used in race preped cars and the brake systems are all custom built with new lines, pump seals, calipers etc. and the cars don't have ABS systems in them. It is almost impossible to flush out a dot4 or dot3 system completely so there is always a risk of a leak or seal failure to occur.

I have used Shell dot 4 since day 1 in my car and everything still works well with no leaks and the car is going on its 14th year (243,000km) with all original seals and master pump from factory not yet changed. Point is use reasonably good stuff and change 1year or 40,000km. Just changed to bosch dot4 as the Shell is getting ridiculous in price. RM28++/liter of Shell dot 4. Bosch only RM25.00/liter I used about 1.5liters for my car to flush and completely bleed the brakes.

Teflon hoses are not universal they have to have the correct brake line fittings in order that they can be fitted to the stock calipers and hose lines for the car. You can get them at Pro-RS RM350. http://www.pro-rs.com/Contact.html They basically can custom make for any car as long as they have the correct fittings for the caliper and brake lines.

 

[sb3]

Ok, lets recap :-
- Check Master pump 's condition
- Replace teflon hoses.
- Bleed brake system using DOT4
- Replace TRW front disc (3.0L)
- Replace Bendix pads if pads worn out correct?

That would be by brakes improvement for 2011.

 

[12savefuel]

Yes correct SB3 with reagds to your recap. You just forgot to make sure parking brake is adjusted properly.

You don't have to replace with Bendix brake pads lah. You can choose any one you want. It is just that I tried Bendix GCT and found it to be a good well rounded pad in terms of performance, smoothness, quietness, and value for money and most of all easy to get. I have so far tried Akebono, EBC and now Bendix GTC and found it a well rounded pad and very cost effective.

 

[doraemon98]

touch wood... for your reference, my A33 age 7 years with 150kkm mileage now, discs are still good.

I replaced my brakepad once with hitachi ones (original nissan) somewhat year 2010 March.

 

[seizai]

It could be that the master pump is failing. To check if it is failing. With the engine on put the car in "D" with A/C off and hold the brake pedal down with firm pressure. Once you hold it there. STOP. Keep the pedal there with the same pressure. If the pedal starts to creep down to the floor, the seal in the master pump is worn and the pump needs changing as soon as possible. Rebuilding the master pump is not advised. New Nissan pump about RM700 taiwan about RM200. A friend said not to use taiwan cause he had a bad experience with it but it was in a volvo.

If the pump is ok. Then you need to change brake fluid and bleed it properly.

Another reason also could be just that you are using standard brake hoses. Standard brake hoses are made of rubber and they expand when you apply pressure which gives the spongy feeling. With the teflon brakes hoses, the plastic teflon hoses do not expand at all so there is no brake pressure loss due to hose expansion. The steel braid is just there to protect the inner teflon hose.

Servo pump failing? You mean to say servo vacuum booster right. If that is failing, it will the the opposite as it will get harder to press the pedal as there is a vacuum leak in the servo thus there will be less assistance from the servo. Just like when the engine is off and there is no vacuum the pedal becomes hard to press. So no I don't think its the brake booster failing.

Most of my experience with spongy brakes. First I check if master pump is ok, then I would change brake fluid and bleed properly as air in the system will cause the system to be "soft" as air is compressible but liquid isn't. Then I would get a set of teflon steel braided hoses.

I would also make sure that the rear brake pads are adjusted properly. For that, most people cheat and adjust the parking brake cable. But to do it properly you need to open up the rear caliper and turn the piston out as the rear caliper pot/piston has a special design. You need to turn it out enough so that the wheel can still spin freely but not stick. As a guide the hand brake should have only about 6-7clicks, anything more its too loose. Anything less its too tight.

Then its just pad thickness and disc thickness. If its worn you brake travel will be more.

Just for your info my A32 3.0L brake system consist of:

Standard calipers, new TRW discs for 3.0L, new Bendix GTC pads (front) rear 50% left. Teflon brake hoses. New brake fluid.

Most of the time sudden spongy feel is caused by air in the system and or failing master pump.

1. check master pump
2. change fluid and bleed properly
3. check pads, discs and parking brake are all with in spec.
4. change to teflon hoses.

As you described your problem as sudden spongy feeling when slow braking e.g. when crawling in traffic jam or talking on HP and driving (hahaha) or moving up to a juction. then i would check the list above.

If its general sponginess even when hard braking, its caused by

1. Air in the system
2. Expanding of standard brake hoses
3. Brake pad material is soft which will compress slightly when under clamping pressure
4. flexing of the floating caliper (also caused by worn floating caliper pins)
5. Poor material and design of caliper which cause caliper to flex.

But No:3-5 will not be your problem as my brakes works well and is really nice and firm.

80-90% of the time its either master pump failing, air in the system or worn out discs and pads.

New cars from the factory with factory stuff don't usually have spongy brakes. Well they do lah when you compare it with teflon hose setup. But when you compare apples to apples its usually pending master pump failure and air in system. As I said most of the people out there don't know how to bleed brakes properly and the stupid vacuum bleeder only does 80% of the job as my car with new pads, discs, parking brake adjusted, teflon braided hoses still felt spongy in the first 10% of brake travel with the stupid vacuum system (but no choice lah 1 man only). So try those things out first then come back with more feedback on how its going for us to help you out.

any guide for MT car? or just masuk gear n hold d clutch?

 

[amrancharger]

dear sir 12savefuel,

i hope u dun mind me copying your info on brake bleeding to other forum as reference and guidance for those that have the heart to diy...especially myself dat is a noob...

 

[12savefuel]

dear sir 12savefuel,

i hope u dun mind me copying your info on brake bleeding to other forum as reference and guidance for those that have the heart to diy...especially myself dat is a noob...

Ok not a problem, amrancharger. Just make sure its quoted properly according to normal standards and don't make it your own. hahaha.

---------- Post added at 03:50 PM ---------- 6 hour anti-bump limit - Previous post was at 03:42 PM ----------

any guide for MT car? or just masuk gear n hold d clutch?

To check a failing master pump in an MT car just start the car and hold the brake pedal down with the car in neutral, if the pedal slowly goes to the floor you have a failing master pump or leak. In an auto car you don't really need to put it in "D" lah. Or If you want in an MT car just stop at the side of a road going down a slope with the car in neutral and engine ON, pull the handbrake so the car wont roll down. Then apply brake pedal and slowly release the handbrake. If the car starts to creep forward and you feel the brake pedal going to the floor you have a failing master pump or a leak somewhere.

 

[amrancharger]

Ok not a problem, amrancharger. Just make sure its quoted properly according to normal standards and don't make it your own. hahaha.

---------- Post added at 03:50 PM ---------- 6 hour anti-bump limit - Previous post was at 03:42 PM ----------

dun worry sir...i've post this link also...
btw...thanx...