wuts best for kelisa???
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im running single 12" in my car in a custom sealed box. n judging by that....i dont think u can fit in 2 12" in the kelisa's boot space....unless u remove the rear speakers entirely la. coz my box goes all the way up to the rear speaker board. i positioned it in the center between the 2 rear speakers....n the rear speakers does help with keeping the woofer box in the center..the magnets stops it from sliding all over the place :D
Xtorm, good to know you're happy with it :D
Just make sure when you do increase the size for your enclosure, the qtc is not below the qts of your driver. Just try to keep the qtc range between 0.7 to 1, the higher figure would have more peaked response which is good if you want to go loud, or opt for a lower qtc for a flatter response which is good for sq. You could have a qtc lower than 0.7, but bear in mind that you'd need an amplifier which has a damping factor greater than 500 to keep it tight ;)
Just make sure when you do increase the size for your enclosure, the qtc is not below the qts of your driver. Just try to keep the qtc range between 0.7 to 1, the higher figure would have more peaked response which is good if you want to go loud, or opt for a lower qtc for a flatter response which is good for sq. You could have a qtc lower than 0.7, but bear in mind that you'd need an amplifier which has a damping factor greater than 500 to keep it tight ;)
great explanation energie....at least now we get more insight on sealed and ported...definitely loosk original..now wheres appleyard and his copy and pasting..we need more copy paste feedback from him..lol
Everyone. faster go buy a Butler amp... hahaha
Anyway, I played with a Power HX2 before and its a nice sub.. can SQ reasonably well but that is just using abt 80% of the sub capabilities... that sub is designed to go LOUD
For a Kelisa, A good 12" will be enough for 90% of users.. if you need more.. go for 2 12's or 2 10's... 2 10's cone area is usually more than the cone area of a single 12" but if compared to a high excursion 12, then diff story.
As for the stroker.. I have it in high regard as a very god SPL sub.. great for open boot blasting as demoed by the Stroker Camry in KL. Even in my car next to it I can feel the bass pumping in. I think the car was louder than some purpose built SPL cars. Dunno how's the sq cuz no one has installed a stroker in a sq setting
so energie... when u wanna come down to KL and let us feel the strokers? Or next time I am up in PG I call u ok?
Anyway, I played with a Power HX2 before and its a nice sub.. can SQ reasonably well but that is just using abt 80% of the sub capabilities... that sub is designed to go LOUD
For a Kelisa, A good 12" will be enough for 90% of users.. if you need more.. go for 2 12's or 2 10's... 2 10's cone area is usually more than the cone area of a single 12" but if compared to a high excursion 12, then diff story.
As for the stroker.. I have it in high regard as a very god SPL sub.. great for open boot blasting as demoed by the Stroker Camry in KL. Even in my car next to it I can feel the bass pumping in. I think the car was louder than some purpose built SPL cars. Dunno how's the sq cuz no one has installed a stroker in a sq setting
so energie... when u wanna come down to KL and let us feel the strokers? Or next time I am up in PG I call u ok?
i tried in my car b4...(wira aeroback)...2 very old 10" sub...is louder than a single 12" kicker comp...fed wit the same 300wattRMS...
so since its a kelisa....2 10" is ok...2 12" of coz better...l.ouder
if u still wan ur boot space...then get a single 12"
so since its a kelisa....2 10" is ok...2 12" of coz better...l.ouder
if u still wan ur boot space...then get a single 12"
Energie
pls read your post and read my answer before you even go there. Well i do not compete unfortunately. I dont have the luxury to buy multiple subs and amp and there is no such thing as Db drag in my place here. Please save all you competition stuff to yourself.
unfortunately i dont know the resonant freq. for a Kelisa. Would you please tell me? Btw, did i mention Brahma is the greatest? Unfortunately i prove my point with facts and i graph it not with someone else name like mr. xxx did something.
Ps. Mr. English Course (Yohannes) please corrent my english because thats what you do best.
pls read your post and read my answer before you even go there. Well i do not compete unfortunately. I dont have the luxury to buy multiple subs and amp and there is no such thing as Db drag in my place here. Please save all you competition stuff to yourself.
unfortunately i dont know the resonant freq. for a Kelisa. Would you please tell me? Btw, did i mention Brahma is the greatest? Unfortunately i prove my point with facts and i graph it not with someone else name like mr. xxx did something.
Ps. Mr. English Course (Yohannes) please corrent my english because thats what you do best.
corrent = correct...now that was easy...u did it on purpose???haha...
thanks Yohannes you come handy in times.
Ok lets discuss it rather than flaming each other and try to help this chap.
If a 15" cannot play loud at low freq. I will give an illustration. Lets say we take a 12" and a 15 in a box tuned to 30hz. Now to reach 100 Db the 12" need more displacement than the 15" because of the cone area. but if you take the same amount of displacement for both subs (eg. 11mm) which sub will be louder?
For sealed and ported. Lets take 12" in a 1.5 cu. ft. box. So one box is a 1.5cu. ft sealed and the other is a 1.5 cu. ft. ported with 3" port. Give each of these sub with 200w rms. Which sub will have more SPL?
Ok lets discuss it rather than flaming each other and try to help this chap.
If a 15" cannot play loud at low freq. I will give an illustration. Lets say we take a 12" and a 15 in a box tuned to 30hz. Now to reach 100 Db the 12" need more displacement than the 15" because of the cone area. but if you take the same amount of displacement for both subs (eg. 11mm) which sub will be louder?
For sealed and ported. Lets take 12" in a 1.5 cu. ft. box. So one box is a 1.5cu. ft sealed and the other is a 1.5 cu. ft. ported with 3" port. Give each of these sub with 200w rms. Which sub will have more SPL?
I find ported boxes nto so nice for SQ as it lacks punch n speed.
ahahah...dun need 2 argue lah...ported the BEST lah.....
vented enclosure can go 4 sq...can go 4 spl...wat also can....
sealed lousy lah...y they make sealed...ported also can go small mah..
our sifu appleyard always in US ice forum 1 leh...
later he copy n paste ppl post show 2 noob like me i also mong cha cha :blink:
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
vented enclosure can go 4 sq...can go 4 spl...wat also can....
sealed lousy lah...y they make sealed...ported also can go small mah..
our sifu appleyard always in US ice forum 1 leh...
later he copy n paste ppl post show 2 noob like me i also mong cha cha :blink:
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Bert
yes sealed respond better during transient but it also depends on the motor of the sub. There is a myth that a 15" cannot move faster than a 10". there is a truth behind this. Last time manufacturer built motor for a 12" abd use the same for the 10" and the 15". Now the wider the voice coil is the weaker your motor strenght will be. That is why ppl claim that a 15" cannot play rapid bass.
Nowdays manufacturer build a custom motor for every size (8", 10" 12" 15" 18" ect.). So a modern days sub can play rapid bass given the strenght of a motor. Adire came out with a revolution with its XBL^2 motor and now ppl are questioning JL subs.
yong
no sifu lah. Same with you only. Know a lot also no money to buy how???
yes sealed respond better during transient but it also depends on the motor of the sub. There is a myth that a 15" cannot move faster than a 10". there is a truth behind this. Last time manufacturer built motor for a 12" abd use the same for the 10" and the 15". Now the wider the voice coil is the weaker your motor strenght will be. That is why ppl claim that a 15" cannot play rapid bass.
Nowdays manufacturer build a custom motor for every size (8", 10" 12" 15" 18" ect.). So a modern days sub can play rapid bass given the strenght of a motor. Adire came out with a revolution with its XBL^2 motor and now ppl are questioning JL subs.
yong
no sifu lah. Same with you only. Know a lot also no money to buy how???
i second that...
but ported is more to LOUDNESS
"For sealed and ported. Lets take 12" in a 1.5 cu. ft. box. So one box is a 1.5cu. ft sealed and the other is a 1.5 cu. ft. ported with 3" port. Give each of these sub with 200w rms. Which sub will have more SPL?"
Is this going to go on forever? My friend, the sealed will have more spl. 3" port has a vent surface area of 7 sq inch. Let's put it this way, let's just assume we install a Brahma 12" in a 1.5ft vented with a 3" port, it will create tons of turbulance & port noise, I hope the Brahma won't huff & puff like a sick cow. Any sort of rattling, port noise etc etc will reduce spl. Welp, unless of course, Adire designed the XBL2 motor to eliminate port noise as well .. hehe.
XBL2 by the way is a lot of hype, Stroker's BL response is very flat, this is yesteryear's news & this is 8-9 years ago punya technology, Adire just found out how to better it, that's all. I hate to dissapoint you pal, but there are many more subs in the market today which will smoke Brahma; sq or spl. The StrokerPro will be out soon which will rock, the IDMax is a great sq sub, the GroundZero plutonium kicks ass for SPL.. & oh yeah excursion limits .. I almost forgot .. http://www.ground-zero-audio.com .. check out the Nuclear & the Plutonium.
Aiya, I better stop, this thread started from a Kelisa, now I endup riding a bull. Sorry guys!
Anyway, Bert, I'll see you when I see you dude, if you're in Pg, you know where we can meet up :D , don't worry, I won't just let you "feel" the strokers, it's sitting pretty in a total of 11.5 cuft enclosure with 2 big ass slot vent totaling up to 118 sq inch ( port anyone? no sissy 3 or 4 inch pls .. hehe ) I'd show you how I run a Brahma bull down too. OOpps. :P
Ok chow, before I kena mad cow disease, huhu. babai
Is this going to go on forever? My friend, the sealed will have more spl. 3" port has a vent surface area of 7 sq inch. Let's put it this way, let's just assume we install a Brahma 12" in a 1.5ft vented with a 3" port, it will create tons of turbulance & port noise, I hope the Brahma won't huff & puff like a sick cow. Any sort of rattling, port noise etc etc will reduce spl. Welp, unless of course, Adire designed the XBL2 motor to eliminate port noise as well .. hehe.
XBL2 by the way is a lot of hype, Stroker's BL response is very flat, this is yesteryear's news & this is 8-9 years ago punya technology, Adire just found out how to better it, that's all. I hate to dissapoint you pal, but there are many more subs in the market today which will smoke Brahma; sq or spl. The StrokerPro will be out soon which will rock, the IDMax is a great sq sub, the GroundZero plutonium kicks ass for SPL.. & oh yeah excursion limits .. I almost forgot .. http://www.ground-zero-audio.com .. check out the Nuclear & the Plutonium.
Aiya, I better stop, this thread started from a Kelisa, now I endup riding a bull. Sorry guys!
Anyway, Bert, I'll see you when I see you dude, if you're in Pg, you know where we can meet up :D , don't worry, I won't just let you "feel" the strokers, it's sitting pretty in a total of 11.5 cuft enclosure with 2 big ass slot vent totaling up to 118 sq inch ( port anyone? no sissy 3 or 4 inch pls .. hehe ) I'd show you how I run a Brahma bull down too. OOpps. :P
Ok chow, before I kena mad cow disease, huhu. babai
wow enegie i can see that you have somethings against Adire here. You can mail to Dan Wiggins about your personal issues but i find that you are talking nonsense rather than fact. Did i said Brahma is for SPL? Stroker yes i agree with you but there are lots of SPL subs you fogot to mention like RE XXX and DD.
The Brahma was designed to play low and loud thats it. If you want to compare the Brahma for a stroker i can bet you will lose big time in SQ wise.
Btw. pls try not to avoid my question and tell your history like in my younger days...... I did asked you a decent question back there. Well if you forgot, what is the resonant freq. for a Kelisa? you are talking way past the topic here not to mention with a 10 year old attitude.
sorry no offence there.
appleyard, I ain't going to argue with you anymore, it stops right here, since according to you what I said made no sense. No problem since you're the expert, but maybe you should start reading how you went abt this thread & others promoting the vented box & brahma & xbl2 bla bla bla when the question being asked was a simple setup for Kelisa etc. You keep on mentioning SPL & huge boxes when that was totally irrelevant with what these guys asked. When I do get into SPL , you get defensive & twisting your cerita back to the stroker losing in sq to the brahma. I wouldn't say I disagree with you, but back when we're talking bout the sealed & it's sq qualities, you kept on defending the vented saying it'l go LOUD. C'mon, make up your mind lah. It's not just about the enclosure, yes vented is definitely louder than sealed when loaded in half space, but when you load it into a car it's different, a lot of other things should be considered. A Kelisa has a much smaller acoustic load angle which constitutes a much stiffer load, thus explaining on why the Kelisa or any other small cars that has higher resonant frequency seemingly is " easier to get louder ", coz when the resonant freq is higher, it is easily picked up by our ears. Now the only way you gonna make a vented play lower notes without sounding so stiff is to make the vented enclosure extremely huge which isn't pratical at all in a smaller daily driven car, this is why I kept on saying sealed is better, a lot better in this case. You build a vented enclosure too small, it's going to sound like a walrus or a trumpet, it won't matter though if you want your bass to sound that bad, but I don't think these guys want it. So I ask you again, why don't you build your Brahma 15" in a 1.6 vented enclosure with a 3" port? Coz you have all the space you want & you know it won't sound as good as the enclosure size you have rite now. Look here bud, it's this simple, since you the expert, I bet you know Neville Thiele & Dick Small, the guys who had their parameters named after. In Dick Small's enclosure white paper, there is a small mathematical equation for simple minds like yours.
Efficiency = k * f(3)^3*V(B)
( k is " efficiency constant") ( f(3) is in Hz & V(B) is in cubic meters )
sealed enclosure : k=2*10^-6
vented enclosure : k = 4*10^-6
Check out the EXTREME sensitivity to f(3) in this relationship. A little bit more bass extension costs you a lot of efficiency & enclosure size. Yet enclosure volume & efficiency are traded equally. If you want to reduce the enclosure by half, then the efficiency will be halved too.So this being the case, I would again point out that I strongly disagree with you claiming that a vented would be better than sealed even when it's smaller, coz since you're the expert, than you'd know that one octave of bass extension requires a payment of a factor of 8 in efficiency or box size. Let me make it simpler for you to understand, nanti cakap aku make no sense lagi,. Let's say you have a system that has a f(3) of 80hz & you want to redesign it so that it goes down to 40hz, you could either make the box 8 times larger or have your system being 1/8th inefficient, or you could make the enclosure twice as large & end up with 1/4th the efficiency, thus making your claim of a very small vented enclosure being better baseless. There's no cheating mother nature for the extra octave of bass my friend. Dont't expect concert bass from briefcase style vented,it won't happen. All drivers have definite performance limits. If you, box sifu, understand these limits, you'd be in a better position to fit a particular subwoofer design to the application at hand. Don't exaggerate of what you can't do with a woofer. No speaker will go very deep, yet still maintains efficiency & uses a tiny enclosure. You've been pasting the Thiele & Small parameters to these noobs here, why don't you paste the Australian Loudspeaker Theory written by Thiele & Small. They claim there is a definite relationship between low frequency bandwidth, efficiency & box size. They claim if you want a tiny enclosure, then bandwidth or efficiency will have to be sacrificed. So where does your claim of a vented enclosure being tinier than a small sealed being better? In this case let's assume the efficiency will have to give, wouldn't the smaller vented require more power handling than a smaller sealed? This my friend is the most common scenario where we get the average joe walking to a shop buying a pair of sub, a factory readymade enclosure ( with 3" port ) which is always tiny & amp. They go home & bump only to find their amp " tak cukup kuat ", which half of the time was never the case. I hope this answers the question I received on why I just used a kilowatt amp to drive my Stroker when the nominal power handling is 1.2kw, I just increase the enclosure volume from Cerwin-Vega's recomended 4 cuft vented to improve the efficiency of my amp's shortcomings. & to answer some of the questions being raised on why the sealed is preffered to the vented when it comes to sq it's bcoz of the other tradeoff factor, whilst maintaining the small vented & efficiency ( if you happen to counter it with a more powerful amp ) the bandwidth would give. This does not happen with sealed. Okay we can argue on the fact that why not make the vented bigger than? Again, read the above. Plus, I'm not so sure with sq comps, but I believe the sub enclosure for sq comps does have it's size guidelines that must be followed, pls correct me sq guys if I'm wrong here.
My point is, do not drive these noobs here into settling for less when you yourself won't.
Oh yeah, a Kelisa has an in - car resonant frequency of 74hz, with its in-car SPL response being loudest at 53hz with the backseats intact & 45hz without the backseats ( & oh .. before anyone else cakap saya nonsense abt the backseats, here's a small simple test, if you drive a hatchback than this would be easier, try your subbass with the backseats folded up & folded down, you'll see the difference). This is measured not with your WinIsd, sorry no graph, heh Sorry if I offended anyone here with my boring explanation, but this apple right here likes technical jargons, I just wanted to prove my point as a person who has a 10 year old attitude who talks nonsense,but like I said earlier, it stops now, I ain't going to argue with the "sifu".
Sorry but no offense ya?
Efficiency = k * f(3)^3*V(B)
( k is " efficiency constant") ( f(3) is in Hz & V(B) is in cubic meters )
sealed enclosure : k=2*10^-6
vented enclosure : k = 4*10^-6
Check out the EXTREME sensitivity to f(3) in this relationship. A little bit more bass extension costs you a lot of efficiency & enclosure size. Yet enclosure volume & efficiency are traded equally. If you want to reduce the enclosure by half, then the efficiency will be halved too.So this being the case, I would again point out that I strongly disagree with you claiming that a vented would be better than sealed even when it's smaller, coz since you're the expert, than you'd know that one octave of bass extension requires a payment of a factor of 8 in efficiency or box size. Let me make it simpler for you to understand, nanti cakap aku make no sense lagi,. Let's say you have a system that has a f(3) of 80hz & you want to redesign it so that it goes down to 40hz, you could either make the box 8 times larger or have your system being 1/8th inefficient, or you could make the enclosure twice as large & end up with 1/4th the efficiency, thus making your claim of a very small vented enclosure being better baseless. There's no cheating mother nature for the extra octave of bass my friend. Dont't expect concert bass from briefcase style vented,it won't happen. All drivers have definite performance limits. If you, box sifu, understand these limits, you'd be in a better position to fit a particular subwoofer design to the application at hand. Don't exaggerate of what you can't do with a woofer. No speaker will go very deep, yet still maintains efficiency & uses a tiny enclosure. You've been pasting the Thiele & Small parameters to these noobs here, why don't you paste the Australian Loudspeaker Theory written by Thiele & Small. They claim there is a definite relationship between low frequency bandwidth, efficiency & box size. They claim if you want a tiny enclosure, then bandwidth or efficiency will have to be sacrificed. So where does your claim of a vented enclosure being tinier than a small sealed being better? In this case let's assume the efficiency will have to give, wouldn't the smaller vented require more power handling than a smaller sealed? This my friend is the most common scenario where we get the average joe walking to a shop buying a pair of sub, a factory readymade enclosure ( with 3" port ) which is always tiny & amp. They go home & bump only to find their amp " tak cukup kuat ", which half of the time was never the case. I hope this answers the question I received on why I just used a kilowatt amp to drive my Stroker when the nominal power handling is 1.2kw, I just increase the enclosure volume from Cerwin-Vega's recomended 4 cuft vented to improve the efficiency of my amp's shortcomings. & to answer some of the questions being raised on why the sealed is preffered to the vented when it comes to sq it's bcoz of the other tradeoff factor, whilst maintaining the small vented & efficiency ( if you happen to counter it with a more powerful amp ) the bandwidth would give. This does not happen with sealed. Okay we can argue on the fact that why not make the vented bigger than? Again, read the above. Plus, I'm not so sure with sq comps, but I believe the sub enclosure for sq comps does have it's size guidelines that must be followed, pls correct me sq guys if I'm wrong here.
My point is, do not drive these noobs here into settling for less when you yourself won't.
Oh yeah, a Kelisa has an in - car resonant frequency of 74hz, with its in-car SPL response being loudest at 53hz with the backseats intact & 45hz without the backseats ( & oh .. before anyone else cakap saya nonsense abt the backseats, here's a small simple test, if you drive a hatchback than this would be easier, try your subbass with the backseats folded up & folded down, you'll see the difference). This is measured not with your WinIsd, sorry no graph, heh Sorry if I offended anyone here with my boring explanation, but this apple right here likes technical jargons, I just wanted to prove my point as a person who has a 10 year old attitude who talks nonsense,but like I said earlier, it stops now, I ain't going to argue with the "sifu".
Sorry but no offense ya?
I think the argument btw u guys is getting a bit out of hand.. can you guys post in a new thread as not to side-track 4041's question as he wants to know something else...
Also, IMHO, ported will be louder. I think no one deny's that. BUt remember that all speakers/subs are made as a compromise between efficiency, box size and how low it will play.
If you look back 10-20 years, subwoofers needed big boxes as power then wasnt cheap. So, efficiency was higher but box size was larger. Now, power is much cheaper and so box sizes have come down and so has efficiency.
Also, IMHO, ported will be louder. I think no one deny's that. BUt remember that all speakers/subs are made as a compromise between efficiency, box size and how low it will play.
If you look back 10-20 years, subwoofers needed big boxes as power then wasnt cheap. So, efficiency was higher but box size was larger. Now, power is much cheaper and so box sizes have come down and so has efficiency.
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