EG clubs/owner etc

[peterj]

i think i should change the coil and also ignitor now... cause now , i change back to my own distributor (replaced with h.cut ignitor before), the poping decreased, and i lower my boost level , and the poping will also decreased, and the bouncing rpm is a little bit better, but still got bounce when there got poping.....i think the msd is the only way now... btw, for the 6AL, i got the wiring diagram online, the blaster coil is connected to the 6AL , there are several wires need to be connected too, can we just simply do by our own by refering to the wiring diagram? need tuning or just set the number of cylinder and the rpm etc??

 

[mADmAN]

wat should i do first???

MSD external coil first or walbro fuel pump first...

 

[peterj]

wat should i do first???

MSD external coil first or walbro fuel pump first...

what ur machine again sifu?? lol .... normally people will upgrade fuel system 1st instead of ignition like me(i running walbro 255lph pump and work regulator even i am stock b16a last time).... fuel not enough ,engine denote and kaboom..... ignition weak just poping and no power like mine but still can survive though..... but if u think ur current pump enough for u, just go for the msd......

 

[shiroitenshi]

i think i should change the coil and also ignitor now... cause now , i change back to my own distributor (replaced with h.cut ignitor before), the poping decreased, and i lower my boost level , and the poping will also decreased, and the bouncing rpm is a little bit better, but still got bounce when there got poping.....i think the msd is the only way now... btw, for the 6AL, i got the wiring diagram online, the blaster coil is connected to the 6AL , there are several wires need to be connected too, can we just simply do by our own by refering to the wiring diagram? need tuning or just set the number of cylinder and the rpm etc??

Ermm.. you do know what the MSD box does, right? Then why are you asking about tuning?

MSD boxes aren't for tuning. They just are ignition amplifiers that drive big coils, for consistent sparking. And contrary to what you may think, the MSD ignition box and coil is plug and play ONLY if you retain the igniter. Direct ECU output not enough power to trigger MSD ignition box (dunno if FCON VPro can, I think probably can, but not sure)

So now it becomes ECU > Igniter > MSD box > coil. EXTRA ELECTRONICS! REJOICE!!

If you don't want to use the original honda igniter, you have to buy the MSD igniter or build your own (schematics on internet)

I don't think having bigger coils will solve your problems, since there's a lot of other potential issues.

People have been pushing big numbers on the stock honda igniter/coil combo, and only resorted to ignition amplifiers due to the stock ones dying faster (but still usable for a while!)

I assume you haven't read what boosted honda people are doing with their spark plug gaps?

I dunno who built your turbo setup and the specs, but if it were me, I'd go back to them.

 

[mADmAN]

People have been pushing big numbers on the stock honda igniter/coil combo, and only resorted to ignition amplifiers due to the stock ones dying faster (but still usable for a while!)

so from this sentence... i assume ud go with the walbro first?

coz gonna get crome soon...and was thinking of installing 1 of them and tune it with the crome...

 

[shiroitenshi]

wat should i do first???

MSD external coil first or walbro fuel pump first...

I'd upgrade the fuel pump only if the original starting to die. If you have a fuel press meter, can really wait until the pressure start fluctuating then only change, if not, going walbro isn't exactly that expensive compared to OEM.

255lph is overkill for NA, but that's what malaysian people bringing in. Bigger is better mah.
External coil, has no effect on power, unless you are running so rich you require a bigger spark to jump the plug gap.

if me? Rather save up and go full standalone with stock ignition for NA enough already. if distributor old already, change to new, if cannot find distributor in the future, go COP with the standalone unit.

Standalone unit if those can drive 8 injectors, , can go korek those standard 240/290/340cc injectors and run staged injection. save money on injectors!

P.s. Not to mention the cool factor of having dual fuel rails :P


---------- Post added at 07:32 PM ---------- 6 hour anti-bump limit - Previous post was at 07:27 PM ----------

so from this sentence... i assume ud go with the walbro first?

coz gonna get crome soon...and was thinking of installing 1 of them and tune it with the crome...

Yup, make sure you are willing to pay extra for the part throttle tuning though, if you're daily driving it. Usually people ignore the part throttle and only concentrate on the hp numbers of dyno.

Part throttle is where most of your driving will be at. Even at track, that part throttle tune may be the difference between engine blowing up or not. Remember that what you read about the AFR on the dyno is only the high load columns. You can have good high load AFR and lean out on the part throttle.
(you should try reading AFR at 10, 40, 60, 80 percent throttle at 4/5th gear, you'd be surprised at lean/rich spots that can occasionally be found.)

Thankfully if running lower compression at 11ish (which is still considered high compared to other cars), they don't detonate easily unless the fuel/ignition mapping really screwed up.

 

[peterj]

Ermm.. you do know what the MSD box does, right? Then why are you asking about tuning?

MSD boxes aren't for tuning. They just are ignition amplifiers that drive big coils, for consistent sparking. And contrary to what you may think, the MSD ignition box and coil is plug and play ONLY if you retain the igniter. Direct ECU output not enough power to trigger MSD ignition box (dunno if FCON VPro can, I think probably can, but not sure)

So now it becomes ECU > Igniter > MSD box > coil. EXTRA ELECTRONICS! REJOICE!!

If you don't want to use the original honda igniter, you have to buy the MSD igniter or build your own (schematics on internet)

I don't think having bigger coils will solve your problems, since there's a lot of other potential issues.

People have been pushing big numbers on the stock honda igniter/coil combo, and only resorted to ignition amplifiers due to the stock ones dying faster (but still usable for a while!)

I assume you haven't read what boosted honda people are doing with their spark plug gaps?

I dunno who built your turbo setup and the specs, but if it were me, I'd go back to them.

i tot the 6AL is the msd ignitor unit? and i do saw on net ppl using msd 6al version 2 ... they setting their rev cut... do the normal 6AL require to do that or just leave it be zero if u wan remain the rv cut on ur ecu?? that is why i asking need tuning or not....

---------- Post added at 07:41 PM ---------- 6 hour anti-bump limit - Previous post was at 07:37 PM ----------

headache, i tot getting the coil,cap,wires and 6al is enough, now come with another new MSD ignitor that i dunno what is that.....if dun get i scare like my stock ignitor, rpm sudden jump till redline

 

[shiroitenshi]

i tot the 6AL is the msd ignitor unit? and i do saw on net ppl using msd 6al version 2 ... they setting their rev cut... do the normal 6AL require to do that or just leave it be zero if u wan remain the rv cut on ur ecu?? that is why i asking need tuning or not....

---------- Post added at 07:41 PM ---------- 6 hour anti-bump limit - Previous post was at 07:37 PM ----------

headache, i tot getting the coil,cap,wires and 6al is enough, now come with another new MSD ignitor that i dunno what is that.....if dun get i scare like my stock ignitor, rpm sudden jump till redline

The MSD 6AL is an igniter unit, but our stock honda ECU output not strong enough to drive the igniter without the OEM igniter. (igniterception) Dunno about FCON Vpro, that one you have to research yourself. Beware though, it seems if you can burn the ignition driver if you pull to much amperage from it with the MSD.

If you have an installer/tuner familiar with MSD ignition, go for it, if not, I think better not.

Note: googled just now, apparently MSD does have a 'programmable' 6AL out now, with adjustable ignition timing curves, so I was wrong earlier. Technology move so fast.. lol

RPM sudden jump until redline is not that worrisome, It just means your igniter is putting out that much pulses, not that your car suddenly 8-9K rpm from 4-5K rpm. Remember that honda RPM output is igniter based. All electronic, not mechanical like last time where 7K rpm = real 7K rpm

Anyhow, you're sure the FCON Vpro tune for your turbo all okay? I find it hard to believe the stock ignition cannot take boost at all. Last few months saw a D series running AR.52 turbo. All stock ignition. Making 280+hp. Also using second hand old ignition.

How about plug gaps. Maybe your plug gaps too wide? What plugs are you running?

---------- Post added at 08:15 PM ---------- 6 hour anti-bump limit - Previous post was at 08:08 PM ----------

so, based on your comment, you already replaced the cap coil and wires?

My own car, long time ago, had a misfiring problem after vtec rpm, even went to the trouble of changing distributor to test, still there. Turns out it was the cables. lol. New cables problem solved, but I didn't get the erratic rpm bounce like yours, of course, got a bit but within the range of 500rpm, not 1000+rpm, which is why I suspect the igniter.

 

[peterj]

The MSD 6AL is an igniter unit, but our stock honda ECU output not strong enough to drive the igniter without the OEM igniter. (igniterception) Dunno about FCON Vpro, that one you have to research yourself. Beware though, it seems if you can burn the ignition driver if you pull to much amperage from it with the MSD.

If you have an installer/tuner familiar with MSD ignition, go for it, if not, I think better not.

Note: googled just now, apparently MSD does have a 'programmable' 6AL out now, with adjustable ignition timing curves, so I was wrong earlier. Technology move so fast.. lol

RPM sudden jump until redline is not that worrisome, It just means your igniter is putting out that much pulses, not that your car suddenly 8-9K rpm from 4-5K rpm. Remember that honda RPM output is igniter based. All electronic, not mechanical like last time where 7K rpm = real 7K rpm

Anyhow, you're sure the FCON Vpro tune for your turbo all okay? I find it hard to believe the stock ignition cannot take boost at all. Last few months saw a D series running AR.52 turbo. All stock ignition. Making 280+hp. Also using second hand old ignition.

How about plug gaps. Maybe your plug gaps too wide? What plugs are you running?

---------- Post added at 08:15 PM ---------- 6 hour anti-bump limit - Previous post was at 08:08 PM ----------

so, based on your comment, you already replaced the cap coil and wires?

My own car, long time ago, had a misfiring problem after vtec rpm, even went to the trouble of changing distributor to test, still there. Turns out it was the cables. lol. New cables problem solved, but I didn't get the erratic rpm bounce like yours, of course, got a bit but within the range of 500rpm, not 1000+rpm, which is why I suspect the igniter.

hurm, i am using ngk iridium plug, number 8, i had change back to my own distributor that the ignitor last time i replaced with recond 1.......plug cable using ultra cables..... and how to adjust plug gap? isn't for the plug just tighten then ok dy? should i gt the coil,cables and cap 1st or together with the 6AL in one shot? i scared a gain since heard the 6AL can hurt the stock ignitor....so the rpm bounce might be the ignitor running weak so need the 6AL to boost it??

hurm, think the tuning is ok since run on dyno already, to read the fuel levels, fuel maintain 11.X :1 when on boost..... i knw the rpm bounce is not a problem since rev cut still there, but it is damn annoying and the poping keep remind me let go the pedal..... i open up the plugs, all black black

the turbo kit i bought from a fren, the mech told me last time also, the poping occurs also when the previous owner just b.o.t ..... the rich owner go bought a brand new distributor cost rm1xxx .... issue solve, but just temporary..... i think the rich fuel one of the reason stock ignition cant support it?

---------- Post added at 12:43 AM ---------- 6 hour anti-bump limit - Previous post was at 12:41 AM ----------

mine rpm bounce at 6k plus rpm sudden to 7k plus.. but the rest i dunno, keep my eyes on the road when the boost kicking in ... lol

---------- Post added at 12:47 AM ---------- 6 hour anti-bump limit - Previous post was at 12:43 AM ----------

is not like bounce so fast till red line, maybe everytime it pop, 300-500 rpm increment or decrements.. basically, bouncing up and down....is like, pop , jumped from 6.5k to 7k plus, then back to normal, pop again, increase again, back again.... arghh.. dunno how to day already, will post up a video if problem still exist...

 

[shiroitenshi]

hurm, i am using ngk iridium plug, number 8, i had change back to my own distributor that the ignitor last time i replaced with recond 1.......plug cable using ultra cables..... and how to adjust plug gap? isn't for the plug just tighten then ok dy? should i gt the coil,cables and cap 1st or together with the 6AL in one shot? i scared a gain since heard the 6AL can hurt the stock ignitor....so the rpm bounce might be the ignitor running weak so need the 6AL to boost it??

hurm, think the tuning is ok since run on dyno already, to read the fuel levels, fuel maintain 11.X :1 when on boost..... i knw the rpm bounce is not a problem since rev cut still there, but it is damn annoying and the poping keep remind me let go the pedal..... i open up the plugs, all black black

the turbo kit i bought from a fren, the mech told me last time also, the poping occurs also when the previous owner just b.o.t ..... the rich owner go bought a brand new distributor cost rm1xxx .... issue solve, but just temporary..... i think the rich fuel one of the reason stock ignition cant support it?

---------- Post added at 12:43 AM ---------- 6 hour anti-bump limit - Previous post was at 12:41 AM ----------

mine rpm bounce at 6k plus rpm sudden to 7k plus.. but the rest i dunno, keep my eyes on the road when the boost kicking in ... lol

---------- Post added at 12:47 AM ---------- 6 hour anti-bump limit - Previous post was at 12:43 AM ----------

is not like bounce so fast till red line, maybe everytime it pop, 300-500 rpm increment or decrements.. basically, bouncing up and down....is like, pop , jumped from 6.5k to 7k plus, then back to normal, pop again, increase again, back again.... arghh.. dunno how to day already, will post up a video if problem still exist...

Well I think you better study about spark plug gapping, there's many articles on the net on it.
Bigger gap, need powerful coil, if you don't, you get misfires. The feedback from the primary coil winding in the coil from a misfire will result in that bouncing rpm thing. If smaller gap, spark is less powerful, but also less strain on coil.

This is how the americans get away with using standard distributor on their turbo cars without killing the standard coil and igniter

Since changing distributor SOLVED the problem, I think the problem is that you are overstressing the coils, so the coil dies faster and kills your igniter along with it. In this case, you can just run external coil with the MSD cap, no need the ignition box. But can't really know for sure how much amperage the aftermarket coil draws and if it can kill your igniter. This one you have to ask honda-tech if anyone uses the same combo you plan to use. If you tell them you are running FCON, I think they'll also say you should just switch to coil on plugs. lol.

Of course, you can also use the MSD ignition box. It wouldn't fry the igniter unless your igniter already spoiling. It just means you have two igniters when you connect to the msd ignition box. One igniter to trigger the secondary igniter, then only goes to external coil.

Oh, BTW, 11.x AFR is quite rich for turbo also. What kind of boost levels are you running? If you got EGT readings even better, can see how hot your turbo is running, and if it really needs that rich an AFR.

 

[peterj]

Well I think you better study about spark plug gapping, there's many articles on the net on it.
Bigger gap, need powerful coil, if you don't, you get misfires. The feedback from the primary coil winding in the coil from a misfire will result in that bouncing rpm thing. If smaller gap, spark is less powerful, but also less strain on coil.

This is how the americans get away with using standard distributor on their turbo cars without killing the standard coil and igniter

Since changing distributor SOLVED the problem, I think the problem is that you are overstressing the coils, so the coil dies faster and kills your igniter along with it. In this case, you can just run external coil with the MSD cap, no need the ignition box. But can't really know for sure how much amperage the aftermarket coil draws and if it can kill your igniter. This one you have to ask honda-tech if anyone uses the same combo you plan to use. If you tell them you are running FCON, I think they'll also say you should just switch to coil on plugs. lol.

Of course, you can also use the MSD ignition box. It wouldn't fry the igniter unless your igniter already spoiling. It just means you have two igniters when you connect to the msd ignition box. One igniter to trigger the secondary igniter, then only goes to external coil.

Oh, BTW, 11.x AFR is quite rich for turbo also. What kind of boost levels are you running? If you got EGT readings even better, can see how hot your turbo is running, and if it really needs that rich an AFR.

yea.. keeping as rich as possible ,stock internals with small V 10.2:1 comp piston and 2mm head metal gasket.......running max at 1.2 bar........currently around 0.6-0.8 bar......i only have shadow exhaust temp, reading 300-500 when cruising, 700-900 when boosting......

so i think i get the cap, coil and cables 1st and see how.... cause internal upgrades,clutch and lsd is coming soon also....

---------- Post added at 09:12 PM ---------- 6 hour anti-bump limit - Previous post was at 08:26 PM ----------

ohhh... gap between the electrode and the plug is call plug gap.. now i understand....

 

[shiroitenshi]

yea.. keeping as rich as possible ,stock internals with small V 10.2:1 comp piston and 2mm head metal gasket.......running max at 1.2 bar........currently around 0.6-0.8 bar......i only have shadow exhaust temp, reading 300-500 when cruising, 700-900 when boosting......

so i think i get the cap, coil and cables 1st and see how.... cause internal upgrades,clutch and lsd is coming soon also....

---------- Post added at 09:12 PM ---------- 6 hour anti-bump limit - Previous post was at 08:26 PM ----------

ohhh... gap between the electrode and the plug is call plug gap.. now i understand....

Great, at least you already have the failsafes. 700-900 is pretty low when boosting. Probably due to you running 11AFR at boost. Good to see you have EGT meter at least. It's a cheaper option to running wideband 24/7.

10+CR is high if you want to boost higher. If you run at 1bar, should be okay I think. Depends on tuning.

Seems like you have to get it tuned in the end anyway, with AFRs like that.

BTW, racun racun again.
http://www.aemelectronics.com/coil-on-plug-cop-conversion-kit-b-series-honda-engines-1255
Apparently AEM made a plug and play version. LOL.

http://www.aemelectronics.com/4-channel-twin-fire-ignition-module-671
Twin FAIYA!!!

Oh wait, four ignition output required.. LOLZ.

 

[peterj]

Great, at least you already have the failsafes. 700-900 is pretty low when boosting. Probably due to you running 11AFR at boost. Good to see you have EGT meter at least. It's a cheaper option to running wideband 24/7.

10+CR is high if you want to boost higher. If you run at 1bar, should be okay I think. Depends on tuning.

Seems like you have to get it tuned in the end anyway, with AFRs like that.

BTW, racun racun again.
http://www.aemelectronics.com/coil-on-plug-cop-conversion-kit-b-series-honda-engines-1255
Apparently AEM made a plug and play version. LOL.

http://www.aemelectronics.com/4-channel-twin-fire-ignition-module-671
Twin FAIYA!!!

Oh wait, four ignition output required.. LOLZ.

huhuhu....i think msd is good enough for me dy.. since might go over 15psi of boost.....in future

my piston used is 10.2:1 comp, but with the 2mm, i think is already 9.X:1 .. at least what we saw is the valve been break up with the piston, they will never touch each other, lol... the tuning is pretuned by top fuel.....i just following the spec they required......

 

[shiroitenshi]

huhuhu....i think msd is good enough for me dy.. since might go over 15psi of boost.....in future

my piston used is 10.2:1 comp, but with the 2mm, i think is already 9.X:1 .. at least what we saw is the valve been break up with the piston, they will never touch each other, lol... the tuning is pretuned by top fuel.....i just following the spec they required......

Pretuned by top fuel? go email them and see what ignition they suggest. I would be interested to know what they recommend. I think they got english speaking staff at their place now, so english email also they reply.

Hope you share your boosting stories when it's completed.

 

[peterj]

btw, my plug gap is 0.8mm... ngk iriway 8

 

[shiroitenshi]

btw, my plug gap is 0.8mm... ngk iriway 8

Spark Plug Gap??? - Honda-Tech
0.025-0.030", recommended for honda boosted applications. Translates to 0.6-0.7mm

Too small a gap in that range will foul your plugs easily because the weaker spark of smaller gapped plugs. in this case you have to trial and error. This, you can do now while waiting for your MSD so can try and see if it solves your problem. Edit: Then again, I don't know how much timing you're running in boost, so was about to suggest trying 7s instead of 8s, since 8's foul easier.

 

[peterj]

Spark Plug Gap??? - Honda-Tech
0.025-0.030", recommended for honda boosted applications. Translates to 0.6-0.7mm

Too small a gap in that range will foul your plugs easily because the weaker spark of smaller gapped plugs. in this case you have to trial and error. This, you can do now while waiting for your MSD so can try and see if it solves your problem. Edit: Then again, I don't know how much timing you're running in boost, so was about to suggest trying 7s instead of 8s, since 8's foul easier.

i am quite confuse with timing everyone talking bout now... the timing is adjusted via ECU or the distributor?

 

[shiroitenshi]

i am quite confuse with timing everyone talking bout now... the timing is adjusted via ECU or the distributor?

Timing is adjustable through both distributor and ECU.

Distributor static timing affect entire rev and load range.

ECU timing adjustment can be specific and targeted to specific rev and load range.

e.g. if you advance your static timing by +2 degree, Tuner can retard entire map and nullify the 2 deg advance you put in.

 

[peterj]

Timing is adjustable through both distributor and ECU.

Distributor static timing affect entire rev and load range.

ECU timing adjustment can be specific and targeted to specific rev and load range.

e.g. if you advance your static timing by +2 degree, Tuner can retard entire map and nullify the 2 deg advance you put in.

hurm now should i retard it? cause i tried before, if advance, good low end throttle respond, press then go when start from 1k rpm... but if u running slow, like not pressing the pedal and tun at 1k rpm in 1st gear, the car feel not comfort cause tend to go forward and backward continuously......if retard, comfort, when car is slow, no continuously forward and backward motion, but slow response when low rpm like u start to press pedal at 1k rpm at 1st gear... my situation now is at the advance condition, good response but not comfy when running slow in traffic jam condition

---------- Post added at 10:21 PM ---------- 6 hour anti-bump limit - Previous post was at 10:09 PM ----------

and bro, looked back to my dyno graph again, notice that my air fuel graph was smooth, just that during a rpm range of 400rpm, at my vtec engagement point, fuel suddenly run leaner as compared to the other, normal running between 11.6-12.5 :1 .... when in this few hundred of rpm, air fuel gone from 12.5 to 13-13.25:1 .. is it normal?

 

[shiroitenshi]

hurm now should i retard it? cause i tried before, if advance, good low end throttle respond, press then go when start from 1k rpm... but if u running slow, like not pressing the pedal and tun at 1k rpm in 1st gear, the car feel not comfort cause tend to go forward and backward continuously......if retard, comfort, when car is slow, no continuously forward and backward motion, but slow response when low rpm like u start to press pedal at 1k rpm at 1st gear... my situation now is at the advance condition, good response but not comfy when running slow in traffic jam condition

---------- Post added at 10:21 PM ---------- 6 hour anti-bump limit - Previous post was at 10:09 PM ----------

and bro, looked back to my dyno graph again, notice that my air fuel graph was smooth, just that during a rpm range of 400rpm, at my vtec engagement point, fuel suddenly run leaner as compared to the other, normal running between 11.6-12.5 :1 .... when in this few hundred of rpm, air fuel gone from 12.5 to 13-13.25:1 .. is it normal?

The car rocking backward forwards at low speed is due to mounts. check your rear mount. Probably broken. It's possibly ALSO related to how the car is tuned in the ECU maps, so when you advance, the timing at 1K is giving quite a bit of power, but it really shouldn't, at 800-1000K rpm in the ECU tables, better set a bit conservative because coasting will suffer when in gear at low speeds at 1K rpm. I used to set mine like that. It feels powerful, but it kills your rear engine mount.

Distributor timing should always follow the tuner recommendation. Original honda is 16 BTDC, but since nobody/most tuners DOESN'T do the short SCS connector/lock ignition timing before setting distributor to eliminate compensation by ECU, you guess is as good mine as how much to advance or retard, and you're also using v-pro, so I don't know what kind of ignition timing the ecu is pushing out as set by tuner. Using the regular non-adjustable timing light, what you should see is the ecu timing, honda crank only show TDC and 16deg mark, which is in between the three marking close together. so without a dial back from zero timing light (the adjustable type), can't really know what static ignition you're running at idle rpm

If you have a dial back from zero timing light, can try advance one degree at a time until you get that sweet spot. It's not the best solution, since the best is still tuner recommendation.

yes, at vtec engagement point, usually become lean a bit, the sudden crossover means that more air goes in, but it's not normal for a 'tuned' car as in vtec crossover, the ecu should be set to dump more fuel just before vtec opens to eliminate that lean spike. With N/A, i say forget it, no worries. 13.25 -14 momentarily at vtec crossover won't blow engines. With turbo, looks like your tune in the VPRO is not so good, but if low boost, should be usable. all VTEC usually lean a bit at that point, but it should be a spike, not a flat lean line.