NGV for high performance vehicle??

[WajaRS]

yup..so better pay more in order to be safe..rather than using those 2nd LPG tanks which some ppl get from the half cut shop..

 

[Vlioxo]

vlioxo,

Then the issue is not about fixing the filling valve at the correct place, it should be the issue of choosing the suitable or correct cylinder. :)

thank you for replying my question tony5050,
and if u dont mind me asking a few more.

what is it that u mean by choosing the right cylinder ? mind to elaborate abit ?

and the blow up case of a car filling up with ngv but then in the boot there is a lpg gas tank for cooking and without affecting it, how can the lpg tank burst ? goes KABOOM !!!! ???

but i see the ngv tank still complete and looks pretty without a scratch. Have u heard of this news before ? its in malaysia. if u want i can find the link, haha cos i viewed it a few days ago . Now not in the history folder anymore.

 

[jeffbboyz]

that case happened in cheras....the right cylinder should be certified by Sirim approval...and most of the tanks are from China....as it cost a boom to bring in Europe cylinders...but make sure its 100% CNG cylinder tanks....

alot of installer mistaken between CNG and LPG.....CNG is Compressed Natural Gas....LPG is Liquid Petroleum Gas....LPG is cooking gas.....and it is widely used in Europe...and their casulties cases is higher compare to CNG.....

alot of installer thinks that CNG n LPG is the same...the case happened in cheras...where the tank blowed...the LPG cooking gas tank blowed...while the CNG tank is still remain pretty without any scratch....this is becoz the LPG cooking gas tank is the external extra tank for the CNG tank...maybe customer wanted to pump extra natural gas...so the cheapest investment is a cooking gas tank which u can get it anywhere....as most extra CNG tanks cost RM1k plus....

the reason for the blow up was becoz....CNG tanks can withstand the pressure of about 300psi...while cooking gas tank can only withstand 30psi...i forget the exact pressure in psi but if not mistaken tat was the figure....that is why the CNG tank remains pretty while the cooking gas tank exploded.....

by the way tony5050....thanks alot for all the explanations...is true that placing the nozzle right infront the engine bay is to comply with JPJ rules n regulations....but from wat i learn from a UK CNG installation expert sifu that came over to malaysia....one of the main reason for not placing nozzle next to the pump fuel area was all becoz of safety purposes....longer gas travelling gas metal hoses n far away from the tank is less dangerous compare to those just next to the tank when u refuel natural gas.....

just my 2 cents....sorry if i offence anyone...thanks

 

[vv777vv]

vlioxo, so far only 3 recorded case of CNG related explosion in malaysia. ALL were NOT because of their CNG cylinder - 1 used welding gas cylinder, and the other 2 - the 1 u mentioned in Cheras and the recent case in melaka both uses cooking gas (LPG) cylinder to fill up. As Jeffboyz mentioned, LPG cylinder can only withstand below 10% of the actual CNG pressure. If you look at the photos from the first first 2 explosions, the CNG cylinders are still intact despite the car already "berkecai".

CNG seamless cylinders are tested up to 1.5 times (300bar) of its working pressure (200bar). However, our manufacturer had tested up to 675bar before the type I steel cylinder shows hairline crack - NOT explosion. So, if you are using a ISO certified & tested CNG cylinder, you can be sure that it is safe.

Imagine pumping air from an industrial air compressor into a balloon or your shopping plastic bag - that's how the welded or lpg cylinder will blow up due to unable to withstand extensive pressure. ALWAYS use only seamless cylinders specially designed for CNG.

btw, i saw someone posted the mini from our shop here, so you might be interested to find out more - http://www.zerotohundred.com/newforums/engine-and-performance/253222-cut-your-fuel-cost-up-to-80%25-and-carbon-footprint.html

 

[tony5050]

hi jeff,

thanks for clearing the cylinder issue also. By the way, longer travel route for the gas refill does have higher safety factor relatively to the shorter one though, just in case anything happen if the cylinder is fully approved ones.

There used to be a video of cylinder testing that i received from a manufacturer in India. Their type I full steel cylinder was put to the test and they found out the real failing pressure level. The cylinder started to only "CRACKED" at the pressure of 675BAR!! And you wouldnt wanna know how much it cost to produced a 675Bar compressor too. The test was carried out on behalf of TATA motors as they were the OEM supplier there locally.

Therefore, there's no way for the normal filling station of Petronas to explode the approved NGV cylinders so to say.

 

[zac]

there are so many installer now, is there any reputable one in jb? or i just gonna make sure everything are sirim certified and price around rm6k?

 

[jeffbboyz]

tony5050,
i heard about the testing done on behalf of TATA too...the video was awesome man to see how much the cylinder can withstand the pressure....so some cylinder although is china made but still reliable...

Zac, because of the few exploded cases happened...JPJ nowadays are very strict and going against NGV installer....which they call it illegal...nowadays to open a NGV installation workshop...u must first attend NGV installation classes and get urself a certificate first...so when ur a certified NGV installer...then only u can apply license with JPJ....and u will be given one year probation before a valid license is issue to u....provided that in within one year time....no customer complains or no customer's car exploded which is installed by u......

so u have 3 stage in the certificate...first is NGV components...2nd is carburetors NGV installation....3rd is fuel injection NGV installation.......this is to ensure u are the certified NGV installer......

by the way....not all cars can install NGV....cars like Campro engine...or Perdana V6...or Naza Ria....or Nissan sentra N16 engines....these are the cars that might bring problems are installing NGVs......

 

[Vlioxo]

by the way....not all cars can install NGV....cars like Campro engine...or Perdana V6...or Naza Ria....or Nissan sentra N16 engines....these are the cars that might bring problems are installing NGVs......

Bring problems like ? I tot many Perdana V6 taxi all use NGV also. and some dealer also sell some factory fitted Naza Ria with HGV for sales.

care to elaborate ? i tot ngv is just a alternative gas that combust and move the engine and in-turn move the car. Why isnt it suitable ? Sorry cos i do not know much about ngv. Need to learn more. Mind to share ?

Bump: Is the tank test video on youtube or something ? couldnt seem to find it on the search. Or is it on some website ? can link me ?

Bump: Is the tank test video on youtube or something ? couldnt seem to find it on the search. Or is it on some website ? can link me ?

 

[jeffbboyz]

Bring problems like ? I tot many Perdana V6 taxi all use NGV also. and some dealer also sell some factory fitted Naza Ria with HGV for sales.

care to elaborate ? i tot ngv is just a alternative gas that combust and move the engine and in-turn move the car. Why isnt it suitable ? Sorry cos i do not know much about ngv. Need to learn more. Mind to share ?

Bump: Is the tank test video on youtube or something ? couldnt seem to find it on the search. Or is it on some website ? can link me ?

Bump: Is the tank test video on youtube or something ? couldnt seem to find it on the search. Or is it on some website ? can link me ?

ok...campro engines and N16 nissan engine is very sensitive when install NGV....this is because of the valve...and its aluminium engine components....which cannot withstand the heat of NGV produces....u can use NGV in these cars...but u will experience engine break down or components failure faster than u expected....Naza Ria V6 engine is also very sensitive...even stock engines for Naza Ria also have overheating problems....as the heat produce by NGV is higher compare to using petrol......

Perdana V6 is because of the gearbox...even brand new Perdana V6 car which come with oil cooler for their gearbox...also experience gearbox breakdown...so with the high heat produce by NGV...it will make the gearbox spoilt faster....last time the workshop where i work...previous worker install NGV in a perdana V6...just after a week...the gearbox jammed...

Factory installed NGV like Naza Ria and Proton...i dont think they study the problems...as my boss already experience with customer having problems with all these cars after install NGVs....so not all cars are suitable for NGVs....

and yes...NGV is just an alternative gas to combust and move the engines...but the heat produce is almost twice is hotter compare to petrol engines....and also higher compression....so not all engines can withstand the heat...especially engines with aluminium engine components or parts....even the engine oil and coolant used by NGV cars are different compare to petrol engine....20w40 and 15w40 is used....if used 10w40...engine oil will evaborate faster than u expected....

for more info on the NGV training n informations on NGV...visit http://www.ngv.com.my .... this is where i work last time.....

 

[vv777vv]

just to share some info - we installed oil temp, oil pressure, water temp and exhaust temp meter to 1 of our Myvi NGV to observe the difference of engine temperature between gas & petrol.

So far, it is only the exhaust temp showing higher temperature when you floor the pedal excessively. under normal driving condition, the temperature is the same. Oil temp & water doesn't show any difference.

we have a perdana v6 running on mixer system that has been running ok for over a year, only some spark plug replacement/throttle body cleaning when backfire occurs occasionally. other than that, no significant heat problem.

Bump:

there are so many installer now, is there any reputable one in jb? or i just gonna make sure everything are sirim certified and price around rm6k?

zac, as jeffboyz mentioned, you need to find a JPJ certified NGV installer. A certified one will issue a installer license under their OWN company name. Many tyre shop/mechanic shop NGV installer are using OTHER's certificate, they themself are NOT JPJ certified.

Also, you need a SIRIM cert for the kit and DOSH cert for the cylinders. As mentioned, most installers in the market only purchase the kit & cylinder from wholesaler, they do not know the actual source of these products and the reliability especially when it comes to the cylinders. They only obtain photocopy of these certs and many are fraudulent docs. So, if possible, find a direct importer who import their own kit & cylinders, at least you know they are really selling ISO, Sirim & DOSH certified products to you.

 

[GoldenHawk]

Err, I realize the discussion is getting more & more informative, but can we get back to the topic?
I'm quite interested of finding out the limitations of building a high compression NGV engine :)

So far the newer aluminum designs are out for the count :( Looks like the older all-iron blocks stand a better chance :P

 

[WajaRS]

hmm..why like so many ppl encountering problems wan..actualy ngv is not a standardised thing where anyone can install..must require specialist in order to tune and also have the experience to solve problems..So far, the place where I install don't have much problems..only problems is kit oni and they will have to send it back to warranty..other than that nothin much..for high compression engines, so far no problem unless you trash it hard like what you alwiz do when you were running on petrol..for mine, one year d still fine..maintenance free..very happy with it..

 

[vv777vv]

Aluminium block or cast iron block makes no difference to CNG usage, it is the valve seat design and material that causes problem, not the engine block.

limitations? in what sense?

putting the valve seat design issue aside and assuming we are talking about older model engines, you can definitely use CNG on a high compression engine, it will run fine witout problem for normal driving.

But if you are talking about long term excessive load on the engine especially at high RPM, CNG is not recommended. It will raise the engine temp (especially the exhaust temp) when you are running the engine at high RPM/load.

So, CNG for drag, circuit driving, drfiting etc. is not recommended, do you consider these as limitations? I don't because nobody is going to do this kind of activities with an extra 60-70kg of cylinder weight on board the car. But if you're driving like Ah Bengs racing on public road all the time, then maybe CNG usage will be a problem to your engine in the long run.

Because the MAIN purpose in malaysia for CNG usage is that it's economical for daily driving. IF you are looking for high power performance, you can install another type of gas instead of CNG - NOS, heheheee....

Our petrol engine NGV is a bi-fuel vehicle, you can switch between gas & petrol ANYTIME, so when cruising, use gas, and when u feel like flooring the pedal more, switch to petrol. A sequential kit does all that automatically, the ECU can be programmed to control all that. But if you're on a mixer system, then u have to do the switching manually...

 

[zac]

So, CNG for drag, circuit driving, drfiting etc. is not recommended, do you consider these as limitations? I don't because nobody is going to do this kind of activities with an extra 60-70kg of cylinder weight on board the car. But if you're driving like Ah Bengs racing on public road all the time, then maybe CNG usage will be a problem to your engine in the long run....

The weight of whole set ngv is 60-70kg ah?? very heavy... then need to change rear suspension to stiffer one right?

 

[vv777vv]

60-70 kg of extra weight is not really that heavy. it's just the weight of an adult. most of our cars are designed to carry up to 5 persons including driver and if you are driving alone all the time, that 60-70 kg is just like you have a person riding with you. but if you have 5 adults in the car all the time plus that 60-70kg, then that's a lot of extra weight.

But it does more or less affect the handling of the car because of the cylinder's position, the weight distribution of the car is affected. Some cars' cylinder sit exactly at the same line as the rear shocks (or some in front of the rear shocks), so, the effect is not that great. some cars have their cylinders far behind the rear shocks towards the edge at the back of the car, and this will normally make the rear looks lower than the front, some people fit a rubber spacer, some change their shocks.

my car has a type I 75liter cylinder but i did not do anything to the shocks. in fact, it gives me better handling. because of the extra weight at the back, the car now is less likely to understeer during high speed & sharp cornerings. so, it depends on how your car behave before you can find the best suspension setup.

if you ask taxi drivers, they will tell you their rear shocks kaput very fast - why? because all their passengers sit at the back plus luggages, you cannot put the blame solely on the cylinder.

so, if you do not have your whole family on board your car all the time or if only 1-2 kids at the back, the impact is negligible.

 

[baby_jap_wawa]

i used to work in NGV conversion workshop...and i have a colleague who install NGV in a Eterna twin-turbo converted Proton Perdana.....it seems like no problem and working just fine....he is using Landi-Renzo kit if not mistaken....

bro.. that is mixer system or sequential.. ?

Bump:

no need...if ur car is fuel injection...must install the NGV sequential kit...mixer is only for carb engine.....

no need tune ur emanage n everything remain same...as sequential kit have their own ECU to tune the gas rich or lean...and the ignition timing.....tuning part as something like tuning emanage too on the laptop.....

i'm using mixer on my perdana and everything i running jst fine.. no drop in power and etc.. :)

Bump:

ok...campro engines and N16 nissan engine is very sensitive when install NGV....this is because of the valve...and its aluminium engine components....which cannot withstand the heat of NGV produces....u can use NGV in these cars...but u will experience engine break down or components failure faster than u expected....Naza Ria V6 engine is also very sensitive...even stock engines for Naza Ria also have overheating problems....as the heat produce by NGV is higher compare to using petrol......

Perdana V6 is because of the gearbox...even brand new Perdana V6 car which come with oil cooler for their gearbox...also experience gearbox breakdown...so with the high heat produce by NGV...it will make the gearbox spoilt faster....last time the workshop where i work...previous worker install NGV in a perdana V6...just after a week...the gearbox jammed...

Factory installed NGV like Naza Ria and Proton...i dont think they study the problems...as my boss already experience with customer having problems with all these cars after install NGVs....so not all cars are suitable for NGVs....

and yes...NGV is just an alternative gas to combust and move the engines...but the heat produce is almost twice is hotter compare to petrol engines....and also higher compression....so not all engines can withstand the heat...especially engines with aluminium engine components or parts....even the engine oil and coolant used by NGV cars are different compare to petrol engine....20w40 and 15w40 is used....if used 10w40...engine oil will evaborate faster than u expected....

for more info on the NGV training n informations on NGV...visit http://www.ngv.com.my .... this is where i work last time.....

for ngv cars, its best to use min _w50.. i'm using 5w50 no probs.. :) those ending with 50 or 60 would be gd cost can withstand the heat while keeping the engine cooler.. :)

 

[Racedude]

hmm..turbo charged ngv has yet to see one but I've heard some volvo's with soft turbo has installed..you try google and search, last time got one kancil turbo track car running on ngv..ddat was decades back..wonder does this car still exist..So far mine is still running fine for nearly 2 years..I'm using mivec..so far so good..it depends on what kit you choose to suite your ride and also reputable installers and tuners..

Hi Bro, I just came accross your post, tat Kancil turbo belonged to me la. Haha small world. I sold it already. But it performed well after some mods I added. Havent gone to NGV for a log time, I converted my Kancil in the mid 90's and at that time even the engineers told me my Kancil cannot so I just told them to fit the kit and I will get the car moving. Came in second in the rally sprint in the next year. But the tatarini carb kit was really not suited to turbocharging, had to think out of the box to seal the whole unit under boost. Ran 10:1 compression and 1.1 bar boost, about 100 horses from 660cc. Range was limited to 200 km only tho as it was dificult to tune. Now with programmed injection I think it will be much easier.

 

[Bar7MonsteR]

since theres big diff in price of mixer/sequential..i think no prob using mixer system for injection cars..just to check whether the mixer system can support ur Horsepower (mixer design difference for certain stage of hp)

btw...do google for HKS ngv...hehehehe...anyone wanna be guinea pig?it is designed for high hp cars...

Bump: since theres big diff in price of mixer/sequential..i think no prob using mixer system for injection cars..just to check whether the mixer system can support ur Horsepower (mixer design difference for certain stage of hp)

btw...do google for HKS ngv...hehehehe...anyone wanna be guinea pig?it is designed for high hp cars...

 

[cyfer]

Hmm..just manage to read through this thread. I am using N16 and had my NGV installed (mixer type) for last 8 months with no problem. Although I am using FS engine oil may make some difference. There are Sentra taxis that use NGV as well. Don't think N16 will have a problem. I do agree on the heat logic though.

Bump: Hmm..just manage to read through this thread. I am using N16 and had my NGV installed (mixer type) for last 8 months with no problem. Although I am using FS engine oil may make some difference. There are Sentra taxis that use NGV as well. Don't think N16 will have a problem. I do agree on the heat logic though.

 

[raysiew123]

hi guys,

Anyone interested in the Sequential kit, to any 4 cylinder cars, i had an offer from my fren's place in Shah Alam for RM6000 with 75litre type I cylinder.
Also, anyone who can recommend any of his frens or relatives gets RM200 commision. Do drop me PM if you have any lead so i can divert you to my fren in Shah Alam. Many thanks.

Zac,

From what i know how the seuqntial system works, i dont think it will have any effect. It will run like normal. Thanks

Bro, i am newbie here..so just want to know what is meant by Sequantial kit? y so exp 6K? i heard my fren put on his waja 3k only. if plan to put on BMW 6 cylinder can?

TQ:rolleyes: