jswong said:
interesting. But my take is that, the lifespan of the unit is due to the wear and tare on the electrodes.
DIY Water powered car
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interesting. But my take is that, the lifespan of the unit is due to the wear and tare on the electrodes.
I was going through some papers on the polarization of water molecules and what-not, trying to see if there's some property of water that can be affected by electricty or magnetism in a non-linear manner.
It appears that high-frequency electrical fields can alter the hydrogen bonds of water, and it can also nullify the van der waals force causing water to remain liquid even below freezing point, etc. However, no sign of high-frequency electrical fields altering the polar covalent bonds.. hmmm..
Maybe polar covalent bonds can be broken en-masse with modulated pulses of high voltage at high frequency? In other words, almost like how the output of a tesla coil produces corona discharge because it spontaneously strips the surrounding air into plasma. It's not hard to 'excite' a water molecule, it's a latent absorber of infrared spectrum, so not much energy would be required to make it jiggle. Perhaps a tesla-coil-like output of low power but high voltage and high frequency could cause polar covalent bonds to dissociate (in addition to it being subjected to certain mechanical limitations, like being restricted within carbon nanotubes). This would result in plenty of hydrogen produced for a low input power, right?
It appears that high-frequency electrical fields can alter the hydrogen bonds of water, and it can also nullify the van der waals force causing water to remain liquid even below freezing point, etc. However, no sign of high-frequency electrical fields altering the polar covalent bonds.. hmmm..
Maybe polar covalent bonds can be broken en-masse with modulated pulses of high voltage at high frequency? In other words, almost like how the output of a tesla coil produces corona discharge because it spontaneously strips the surrounding air into plasma. It's not hard to 'excite' a water molecule, it's a latent absorber of infrared spectrum, so not much energy would be required to make it jiggle. Perhaps a tesla-coil-like output of low power but high voltage and high frequency could cause polar covalent bonds to dissociate (in addition to it being subjected to certain mechanical limitations, like being restricted within carbon nanotubes). This would result in plenty of hydrogen produced for a low input power, right?
very insightful... do you mind PM me the sources of the reference?
BTW, corona discharge... if the produced gasses are not separated immediately would it be dangerous?
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erm.
obviously u all very good at chemistry... can explain many things doped materials, nanoparticle structures, covalent bonds, trinitrotoluene etc.
discussing it in here can get knowledge... but no results....
i suggest u try the guy in the US did as in his webpage.
Obviously it saves fuel, otherwise he and many others wont bother
to DIY it right? since its cheap... tats my point. Im not telling u to make car
run TOTALLY on Hydrogen get from water... as u point out it is too little energy.
My point is the hydrogen produce by electrolysis can help subsititute fuel to a certain extent and end up saving fuel. thats all.
and keypoint is: CHEAP.
obviously u all very good at chemistry... can explain many things doped materials, nanoparticle structures, covalent bonds, trinitrotoluene etc.
discussing it in here can get knowledge... but no results....
i suggest u try the guy in the US did as in his webpage.
Obviously it saves fuel, otherwise he and many others wont bother
to DIY it right? since its cheap... tats my point. Im not telling u to make car
run TOTALLY on Hydrogen get from water... as u point out it is too little energy.
My point is the hydrogen produce by electrolysis can help subsititute fuel to a certain extent and end up saving fuel. thats all.
and keypoint is: CHEAP.
my take is - it's technologically and practically viable to substitute some fossil fuel with hydrogen generated on-board. NOt difficult to construct a "hydrogen generator". Anyone here may give it a try.
However, to run a car fully by water as deduced from the definition of "water-powered car" - almost impossible to home-make one without sufficient scientific and technological back-ups.
However, to run a car fully by water as deduced from the definition of "water-powered car" - almost impossible to home-make one without sufficient scientific and technological back-ups.
Yeah, it's not viable to have a fully hydrogen-powered car running off water alone.
Among some of the pages that are good enough for preliminary information:
http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/hbond.html
http://witcombe.sbc.edu/water/chemistrystructure.html
http://www.amolf.nl/highlights/highlights_2002/hlmei/2002_05.html
The info about tesla coils, I guess you can just read up stuff on tesla coils and corona discharges around high electrical voltages, etc. Corona discharge isn't exactly harmful, but it's a source of power loss. A good tesla coil will not have corona discharge, because we want air to be converted to plasma in the form of a lightning bolt, rather than a bunch of highly ionised air.
If we could extract hydrogen from water easily, the Israelis and Americans would have done it years ago.. we now have such accurate quantum mechanical models for the water molecule and the hydrogen atom, it's not impossible to find ways to manipulate the bonds or whatever from mathematical analysis alone. If it could be done, it would have been.
Among some of the pages that are good enough for preliminary information:
http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/hbond.html
http://witcombe.sbc.edu/water/chemistrystructure.html
http://www.amolf.nl/highlights/highlights_2002/hlmei/2002_05.html
The info about tesla coils, I guess you can just read up stuff on tesla coils and corona discharges around high electrical voltages, etc. Corona discharge isn't exactly harmful, but it's a source of power loss. A good tesla coil will not have corona discharge, because we want air to be converted to plasma in the form of a lightning bolt, rather than a bunch of highly ionised air.
If we could extract hydrogen from water easily, the Israelis and Americans would have done it years ago.. we now have such accurate quantum mechanical models for the water molecule and the hydrogen atom, it's not impossible to find ways to manipulate the bonds or whatever from mathematical analysis alone. If it could be done, it would have been.
i had a good laugh reading the earlier posts. without an intermediate knowledge of principles of physics, it really is easy for someone to simply assume that everyone can go home and make their Wiras and Kancils run on water alone.
donCityZ, you probably mean well but your arguments are completely baseless and built around flaky bits of fact you've picked up from here there.
cground and jswong, you two are obviously well-versed in the issues at hand. it has been years since university and reading what you 2 put forth, really caught my interest.
as for that Hydroxene shit we have now, forgive me if i am skeptical but i don't buy into it. there has been nothing told about the underlying technology, nothing mentioned about the warranty of the system and completely nothing about the service/maintenance of the particular vehicle.
furthermore, with our nation's "BRILLIANT" track record in automotive production quality, would you feel safe driving around with the same combustible gas that put the Hindenberg out of her misery?
i do feel however that yes, hydrogen is a very clean and very viable source of alternate fuel for the future. the approach i think should be first, to find a way to safely contain the volatile gas, maybe some sort of catalyst that keeps it inert?
hydrogen gas can then be produced en masse at much lower costs and be sold to consumers at refill kiosks/stations all over. there you have it, cheap and renewable fuel. well maybe not a 100% hydrogen powered car, but how about a hybrid electric/h2 car?
oh and the statement that :: "As one cannot create or destroy energy, where do we get those energy?" :: still holds true but apparently is about to be challenged by a supposedly new discovery. theoretically a perpetual source of boundless energy, something to do with magnetic fields, i will see if i can find the source of the report.
can you imagine if that proves true? it will rewrite everything we know about science and what we know!!
donCityZ, you probably mean well but your arguments are completely baseless and built around flaky bits of fact you've picked up from here there.
cground and jswong, you two are obviously well-versed in the issues at hand. it has been years since university and reading what you 2 put forth, really caught my interest.
as for that Hydroxene shit we have now, forgive me if i am skeptical but i don't buy into it. there has been nothing told about the underlying technology, nothing mentioned about the warranty of the system and completely nothing about the service/maintenance of the particular vehicle.
furthermore, with our nation's "BRILLIANT" track record in automotive production quality, would you feel safe driving around with the same combustible gas that put the Hindenberg out of her misery?
i do feel however that yes, hydrogen is a very clean and very viable source of alternate fuel for the future. the approach i think should be first, to find a way to safely contain the volatile gas, maybe some sort of catalyst that keeps it inert?
hydrogen gas can then be produced en masse at much lower costs and be sold to consumers at refill kiosks/stations all over. there you have it, cheap and renewable fuel. well maybe not a 100% hydrogen powered car, but how about a hybrid electric/h2 car?
oh and the statement that :: "As one cannot create or destroy energy, where do we get those energy?" :: still holds true but apparently is about to be challenged by a supposedly new discovery. theoretically a perpetual source of boundless energy, something to do with magnetic fields, i will see if i can find the source of the report.
can you imagine if that proves true? it will rewrite everything we know about science and what we know!!
differ said:
Yes, a sorbent with high surface area and low density, such as carbon nanotubes.
However, reliability and consistency in controlling the kinetics of the absorption-desorption hysterises is still troubling the researchers.
Boundless energy.. hmm... i had this idea since primary 6, just an idea - an perpetual magnetic motor that runs by itself without needing external energy. Seems like some inventor are working on it now.
http://www.geocities.com/k_pullo/SMOT15_PM3-3.htm
certainly, when i was 12, i have no idea what "perpetual machine" is. :D
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hehe, very interesting isn't it? imagine re-writing everything we know, to be able to create energy!
with that done, even Perelman has already proved the Pointcare conjecture, who knows what's next? going faster than the speed of light? i wanna be JeanLuc Picard!
oh and when you free to hook me up with one of your grounding kits, looks awesome.
with that done, even Perelman has already proved the Pointcare conjecture, who knows what's next? going faster than the speed of light? i wanna be JeanLuc Picard!
oh and when you free to hook me up with one of your grounding kits, looks awesome.
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Caya lah C-ground and Differ! The link is inaccessible, though.
Once upon a time, I regularly checked out sites like Keelynet and Stardrive to look for 'alternate' science involving 'magnetic motors' and homopolar generators.. you know, things that fall into the category of 'zeropoint energy' or 'free energy'.
But ever since getting more well-versed in physics and shit, I find that a lot of the stuff doesn't make sense.. There is still a possibility that those magnetic motors work, and there IS such a thing as zeropoint energy (think of it as the energy of the quantum vacumm), but it's just not so easy to acquire and exploit.
Permanent magnets are a potential source of 'free' energy obviously, because the minimum 'ground' energy of the electrons is determined by the quantum vacumm.. the energy level is quantized, so there's perpetually a minimum energy level that doesn't diminish, it's like a feedback loop - the electrons tap energy from the quantum vacumm to radiate virtual photons (magnetic force), and the magnetic field polarizes the surrounding quantum vacumm. That's a 'free' energy concept that's readily exploitable.
Hydrogen can't really be made to be inert, because its potential as an energy source depends on it being THAT reactive. If we make it inert, it's of as much use towards combustion as carbon dioxide or nitrogen is.
What we can do is to contain the hydrogen safely. In the case of that Hydroxene shit, they say that the hydrogen that is produced is kept inside a container no larger than a small paper cup, and it has no combustion risk. Even if it does catch fire, the explosion will be very small, they claim.
If we contain it within structures like carbon nanotube, it will involve entirely new nanotech methods to process. Probably it would involve vibrations or resonance of the nanotubes in a certain way to 'hold' and to 'release' the hydrogen atoms? For instance, generate a standing wave within the nanotube with respect to the hydrogen's natural oscillation frequency, so we keep them all stationary and in-line.. and then introduce a multiphase vibration to create a vibratory 'peristaltic' effect to 'push' them out when we want to release them. Maybe something like that could work, who knows, but it would be tedious and we're still a long way off from finding a workable method to do this.
Once upon a time, I regularly checked out sites like Keelynet and Stardrive to look for 'alternate' science involving 'magnetic motors' and homopolar generators.. you know, things that fall into the category of 'zeropoint energy' or 'free energy'.
But ever since getting more well-versed in physics and shit, I find that a lot of the stuff doesn't make sense.. There is still a possibility that those magnetic motors work, and there IS such a thing as zeropoint energy (think of it as the energy of the quantum vacumm), but it's just not so easy to acquire and exploit.
Permanent magnets are a potential source of 'free' energy obviously, because the minimum 'ground' energy of the electrons is determined by the quantum vacumm.. the energy level is quantized, so there's perpetually a minimum energy level that doesn't diminish, it's like a feedback loop - the electrons tap energy from the quantum vacumm to radiate virtual photons (magnetic force), and the magnetic field polarizes the surrounding quantum vacumm. That's a 'free' energy concept that's readily exploitable.
Hydrogen can't really be made to be inert, because its potential as an energy source depends on it being THAT reactive. If we make it inert, it's of as much use towards combustion as carbon dioxide or nitrogen is.
What we can do is to contain the hydrogen safely. In the case of that Hydroxene shit, they say that the hydrogen that is produced is kept inside a container no larger than a small paper cup, and it has no combustion risk. Even if it does catch fire, the explosion will be very small, they claim.
If we contain it within structures like carbon nanotube, it will involve entirely new nanotech methods to process. Probably it would involve vibrations or resonance of the nanotubes in a certain way to 'hold' and to 'release' the hydrogen atoms? For instance, generate a standing wave within the nanotube with respect to the hydrogen's natural oscillation frequency, so we keep them all stationary and in-line.. and then introduce a multiphase vibration to create a vibratory 'peristaltic' effect to 'push' them out when we want to release them. Maybe something like that could work, who knows, but it would be tedious and we're still a long way off from finding a workable method to do this.
sometimes.. it doesn't need such complicated measurements.
The Van de Waals energy in physisorption can be overcame by heating the sorbate to supply sufficient energy for the H2 molecules to vibrate and eventually releasing themselves from the sorbent. Alternatively, decreasing the relative pressure (in vacuum) also release the sorbate.
Heating and vacuuming is what we use in the lab to regenerate the sorbent samples after a physisorption study.
However, for consistent and reliable desorption rate, the structure of the sorbent is very important. It must be ideally uniform/homogeneous.
CNT shows a geat potential in this field because we have been able to produce CNT at almost uniform length/diameter/shape experimentally. Other than CNT, we certainly have many types of http://nanotechweb.org/dl/wp/nanoporous_materials_WP.pdf to select from.
The Van de Waals energy in physisorption can be overcame by heating the sorbate to supply sufficient energy for the H2 molecules to vibrate and eventually releasing themselves from the sorbent. Alternatively, decreasing the relative pressure (in vacuum) also release the sorbate.
Heating and vacuuming is what we use in the lab to regenerate the sorbent samples after a physisorption study.
However, for consistent and reliable desorption rate, the structure of the sorbent is very important. It must be ideally uniform/homogeneous.
CNT shows a geat potential in this field because we have been able to produce CNT at almost uniform length/diameter/shape experimentally. Other than CNT, we certainly have many types of http://nanotechweb.org/dl/wp/nanoporous_materials_WP.pdf to select from.
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Okay, Water + Fuel powered car.. makes sense, but still not-so-easy to realize..
C-ground, you're producing nanotubes and shit? Hell, man, can you also produce myopolymers, or at least myomer-mimicking polymers that can be coupled to other stuff that pick up electrical signals of muscular activity transdermally?... It can be used to create something like the Iron Man armor!
Anyway, back to the topic, do you suppose that Hydroxene uses such nanoporous materials, or is it just marketing talk? I still believe that the 'nanotech' portion involves orienting (almost like polarizing) the water molecules mechanically, by forcing water through an inlet a few angstroms across, corresponding to its sideways profile (Oxygen at the centre and bottom, hydrogen atoms flanking either sides at around 107 degrees dipole separation.. permanent magnetic field polarizes molecule to always have oxygen facing downwards and hydrogen facing upwards for instance, and subject to far-infrared radiation to pre-excite the valence electrons that contribute towards the polar covalent bond).
By the way, I remember that back in college I heard of stuff called "degenerate semiconductors", and the gist of it is that any conductive stuff has a finite relaxation time.. the time taken for the electron 'gas' to rise up to the conduction band upon application of an electrical potential. A high-voltage pulsed DC voltage can perform 'stepped charging' of a capacitor with hardly any current draw, but with a voltage gain, by exploiting the material properties of the capacitor (primarily the relaxation time).
Perhaps, we can also perform "step excitation" of a water molecule by introducing voltages far beyond what's required to break the polar covalent bond, and do so within the relaxation time of the molecule, so that the electrons involved in the covalent bond has no chance to be de-excited before the next jolt comes along. This is one of the methods to prevent a continous expenditure of energy, by taking advantage of time windows..
C-ground, you're producing nanotubes and shit? Hell, man, can you also produce myopolymers, or at least myomer-mimicking polymers that can be coupled to other stuff that pick up electrical signals of muscular activity transdermally?... It can be used to create something like the Iron Man armor!
Anyway, back to the topic, do you suppose that Hydroxene uses such nanoporous materials, or is it just marketing talk? I still believe that the 'nanotech' portion involves orienting (almost like polarizing) the water molecules mechanically, by forcing water through an inlet a few angstroms across, corresponding to its sideways profile (Oxygen at the centre and bottom, hydrogen atoms flanking either sides at around 107 degrees dipole separation.. permanent magnetic field polarizes molecule to always have oxygen facing downwards and hydrogen facing upwards for instance, and subject to far-infrared radiation to pre-excite the valence electrons that contribute towards the polar covalent bond).
By the way, I remember that back in college I heard of stuff called "degenerate semiconductors", and the gist of it is that any conductive stuff has a finite relaxation time.. the time taken for the electron 'gas' to rise up to the conduction band upon application of an electrical potential. A high-voltage pulsed DC voltage can perform 'stepped charging' of a capacitor with hardly any current draw, but with a voltage gain, by exploiting the material properties of the capacitor (primarily the relaxation time).
Perhaps, we can also perform "step excitation" of a water molecule by introducing voltages far beyond what's required to break the polar covalent bond, and do so within the relaxation time of the molecule, so that the electrons involved in the covalent bond has no chance to be de-excited before the next jolt comes along. This is one of the methods to prevent a continous expenditure of energy, by taking advantage of time windows..
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I don't make CNT lar.. what i am doing is some organo-clay nanocomposites.
Then you need conductive nanoporous materials lor.. haha!
BTW, just tried electrolyzing a 0.25M NaOH solution at home with 12 - 14V DC (my car battery lar..). It gets heated pretty fast and the rate increased as it's heated. Didn't measure the current as I don't have an analogue amp meter. Did measure the resistance across the two stainless steel electrodes, about 1.7k ohm. The calculated current will be 7 - 8 mA.
What i can observe was the battery voltage (without charging) dropped pretty fast (0.1V/minute), meaning the energy consumption was pretty high. Lots of energy is wasted as heat.
Very slow lar.. haha!
jswong said:
Then you need conductive nanoporous materials lor.. haha!
BTW, just tried electrolyzing a 0.25M NaOH solution at home with 12 - 14V DC (my car battery lar..). It gets heated pretty fast and the rate increased as it's heated. Didn't measure the current as I don't have an analogue amp meter. Did measure the resistance across the two stainless steel electrodes, about 1.7k ohm. The calculated current will be 7 - 8 mA.
What i can observe was the battery voltage (without charging) dropped pretty fast (0.1V/minute), meaning the energy consumption was pretty high. Lots of energy is wasted as heat.
Very slow lar.. haha!
myomer? leave it to our DNA lar.. haha!
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