Double-Clutching

[InitialD]

Nowadays with technology like Tiptronic or Steptronic ( F1 style paddle gear shift ), no need to do heel and toe or double declutch or clutchless shifting.

Heck..even my mom's Honda City has the F1 style gear shift.. well.. not exactly lah.. .heheheh... but u know what I mean lah... damn shiok downshifting and upshifting just by pressing those + and - buttons.

 

[BoatOwner]

Originally posted by saru-kun@Feb 23 2005, 19:34
heel and toe
one step up from rev matching. done when approaching a corner. it reduces braking distance by downshifting and braking at the same time, allowing you to brake later...or trailbrake into the turn, if you like
- feather the brake
- clutch in
- move into neutral
- rotate your right foot, and use your heel to blip the throttle, while still feathering the brake with the balls of your foot
- drop into lower cog
- clutch out
..............................
.....
..
cheers

to explain some of the points in a more practical sense: remember that all of the steps are done at pretty much the same time. - foot on brake - stab the clutch, blip the throttle and and shift down all at pretty much the same time, while braking. - and if racing you won't be feathering the brake, you'll be hammering it! - thinking about them all at once actually makes it easier than trying to do them all separately.

Same with clutchless downshifting... blip the throttle as you go through neutral. there is no need to actually wait in neutral. - at least not once you get a hang of it.


bigboystoys: i disagree a bit on it being really difficult to maintain a very constant pressure on the brake during heel-toe. it is no more difficult than getting the revs and timing of the shift matched perfectly every time with clutchless shifting.

I do agree on the advantages of clutchless though - i.e. left foot braking. Leaves a lot more possibilities for foot-play and allows to keep weight transfer to a minimum.

if you can find it have a look of a senna onboard from suzuka or monaco that are around somewhere. he copes quite well with heel-toe with an H-pattern gearbox. :)

 

[differ]

Originally posted by InitialD@Feb 25 2005, 00:44
Nowadays with technology like Tiptronic or Steptronic ( F1 style paddle gear shift ), no need to do heel and toe or double declutch or clutchless shifting.

Heck..even my mom's Honda City has the F1 style gear shift.. well.. not exactly lah.. .heheheh... but u know what I mean lah... damn shiok downshifting and upshifting just by pressing those + and - buttons.

i thought Honda City was running on the CVT transmission? not the H-Box config right?

 

[bigboystoys]

Originally posted by BoatOwner@Feb 25 2005, 02:53

bigboystoys: i disagree a bit on it being really difficult to maintain a very constant pressure on the brake during heel-toe. it is no more difficult than getting the revs and timing of the shift matched perfectly every time with clutchless shifting.
heel-toe with an H-pattern gearbox. :)

heel/toe requires you to use your left foot for the clutch (pretty much a slam in and out action) .. and your right foot to actuate the brake at the maximum braking force.. and at the same time rocking your foot over to the right and blipping the throttle to the correct RPM... that's like 3 actions to be done... clutch.. brake.. blip..


clutchless shifting... you use the left foot to brake at the maximum braking force... your right foot to blip to the correct RPM... there's 2 actions involved.. brake... blip...


so i guess you're saying that having less actions to coordinate actually complicates the whole thing? i've spent a lot of time reading on the techniques and trying to understand what's going on in the cockpit of the race car...
i don't think i'll ever disagree with some of the really 'great' racers or race engineers ever lived to tell the tale of driving techniques...

:)

 

[saru-kun]

is it possible to photostat a copy of "drive to win" for me?
i have "tune to win", and i'm trying to get "engineer to win" as well but these books are hell expensive...

anyway, referring back to topic, the certain "gods" i mentioned are racing car drivers...running in the JGTC, formula nippon, CART, and even lemans...i believe you've heard of keiichi tsuchiya, manabu orido, jyuichi wakisaka, micheal krumm....etc

cheers

 

[bigboystoys]

Originally posted by saru-kun@Feb 25 2005, 16:41
is it possible to photostat a copy of "drive to win" for me?
i have "tune to win", and i'm trying to get "engineer to win" as well but these books are hell expensive...

anyway, referring back to topic, the certain "gods" i mentioned are racing car drivers...running in the JGTC, formula nippon, CART, and even lemans...i believe you've heard of keiichi tsuchiya, manabu orido, jyuichi wakisaka, micheal krumm....etc

cheers

you have PM

 

[canken2]

guys, i'd like a copy of it too. puh-lease ^_^

 

[MitonCT26]

Originally posted by bigboystoys@Feb 25 2005, 10:02
so i guess you're saying that having less actions to coordinate actually complicates the whole thing? i've spent a lot of time reading on the techniques and trying to understand what's going on in the cockpit of the race car...
i don't think i'll ever disagree with some of the really 'great' racers or race engineers ever lived to tell the tale of driving techniques...

theory is much more simpler said than practicality.

when i stated clutchless shifting used in racing.. i meant serious racing business...
unless your referrals of the jap gods are really that god to be able to heel/toe while maintaining absolute maximum possible braking force on the brake pedals... then i kowtow to them... but in reality it's almost impossible... maybe the gods of the gods driver would be able to do that... ie.. schumacher.. senna?

maximum braking force? wont you lock up your brakes? :blink:

so we talk about something our level. we talk about production cars first. where gearboxes are regulated and must have synchros and no dogbox allowed...and ABS are banned...

so if you use maximum brake force wont you lock up the fronts and lose control?

so if you are driving a VTEC for example, keeping the RPMS within the VTEC range will get you better power out after turning in instead of wasting your time blipping for the right moment to put in your gear selection?

it's a split second action for heel toe if you master it right...not riding the clutch for 1 second or so. and i dont think it's a waste of my brain juice or energy or my reflexes...

and after 3 pages of postings i still cant get where are we going about this double clutching / clutchless shift up downshift thingy. i still cant get the advantages of using it. save clutch? save petrol? save gearbox? save bearings?

:ph34r:

 

[bigboystoys]

Originally posted by MitonCT26@Feb 25 2005, 17:56
maximum braking force? wont you lock up your brakes? :blink:

so we talk about something our level. we talk about production cars first. where gearboxes are regulated and must have synchros and no dogbox allowed...and ABS are banned...

so if you use maximum brake force wont you lock up the fronts and lose control?

so if you are driving a VTEC for example, keeping the RPMS within the VTEC range will get you better power out after turning in instead of wasting your time blipping for the right moment to put in your gear selection?

it's a split second action for heel toe if you master it right...not riding the clutch for 1 second or so. and i dont think it's a waste of my brain juice or energy or my reflexes...

and after 3 pages of postings i still cant get where are we going about this double clutching / clutchless shift up downshift thingy. i still cant get the advantages of using it. save clutch? save petrol? save gearbox? save bearings?

:ph34r:

you got it all right about keeping within the VTEC range ... etc etc... split second foot action and all... you're absolutely right...
please read my posts properly before replying... read what i was comparing and on what basis did i compare on also please...

but i'm afraid you got it mixed up when i say maximum braking force.. i meant the maximum force that you foot can exert on the pedal it locks up.. so that you use the least braking distance and also the shortest time .. which points to later braking which results in faster lap times??


you shd read more about clutchless shifting and its advantages ... really you should... :)

 

[vestax]

Originally posted by MitonCT26+Feb 25 2005, 17:56 -->

QUOTE (MitonCT26 @ Feb 25 2005, 17:56 )

--QuoteBegin-bigboystoys

@Feb 25 2005, 10:02 so i guess you're saying that having less actions to coordinate actually complicates the whole thing? i've spent a lot of time reading on the techniques and trying to understand what's going on in the cockpit of the race car... i don't think i'll ever disagree with some of the really 'great' racers or race engineers ever lived to tell the tale of driving techniques...

theory is much more simpler said than practicality. when i stated clutchless shifting used in racing.. i meant serious racing business... unless your referrals of the jap gods are really that god to be able to heel/toe while maintaining absolute maximum possible braking force on the brake pedals... then i kowtow to them... but in reality it's almost impossible... maybe the gods of the gods driver would be able to do that... ie.. schumacher.. senna? maximum braking force? wont you lock up your brakes? :blink: so we talk about something our level. we talk about production cars first. where gearboxes are regulated and must have synchros and no dogbox allowed...and ABS are banned... so if you use maximum brake force wont you lock up the fronts and lose control? so if you are driving a VTEC for example, keeping the RPMS within the VTEC range will get you better power out after turning in instead of wasting your time blipping for the right moment to put in your gear selection? it's a split second action for heel toe if you master it right...not riding the clutch for 1 second or so. and i dont think it's a waste of my brain juice or energy or my reflexes... and after 3 pages of postings i still cant get where are we going about this double clutching / clutchless shift up downshift thingy. i still cant get the advantages of using it. save clutch? save petrol? save gearbox? save bearings? :ph34r: [/b][/quote] tan sri miton @ saga 380hp , i have to double clutch sometimes , not really double clutch la , sometimes gears cannot go in , so have to step on the clutch again and get it match with the rev's and then only can enter . not that i want to save clutch or petrol , but then i have to la no choice :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[escaflowne]

yup...agree wit vestex. sometime i do double cluth..haih my gear box berapa tahun lama sometimes is quite hard to get it in.

double clucth and clucthless shift is just an technique,no harm let ppl to learn new things rite.either will it serve the purpose of keep up the rev and etc etc is always up to individual to prefer..

we are here to learn from each and others..so chill chill lah bro k..

regards

 

[saru-kun]

bigboystoys...PM replied ;)

speaking of all these techniques, rev matching isn't exactly "racing"...its just a driving style...saves the clutch and bearings and the synchros from excessive wear...

clutchless shifts on the other hand...destroys your gearbox...racing ppl use it, coz they're dog tooth are so darn big that it can withstand the forces imparted on it...but they still break. thats why a dogbox is constantly overhauled, say every 5000-10 000km?
what breaks? selector forks, throw out bearings, heck, even the constant mesh gears themselves lose their teeth...

cheers

 

[thteh86]

tailo sarukun....forgot to state, i played too much clutchless shift yesterday...then
when i played again...couldn't go shift in...so tried to use the normal way, gear box KONG. One lesson learn, don't play too much with clutchless shift

went to my mec, he said gear box's system just now gone crazy then now back to normal but may have some problem. Still don't get wat he really mean though.

 

[jiggly_head]

aiyo so cham

 

[MitonCT26]

Originally posted by MitonCT26@Feb 25 2005, 17:56
and after 3 pages of postings i still cant get where are we going about this double clutching / clutchless shift up downshift thingy. i still cant get the advantages of using it. save clutch? save petrol? save gearbox? save bearings?

as i said, after 4 pages now...i am still confused...where are we going? :blink: :lol: :P

 

[escaflowne]

sad to hear about ur gear box thteh..one day come yumcha again..give the bill to sarukun..kekekekeke..that day not i taught u clucthless shift one arr....haha. but i reckon,try get used of heel and toe.if u r really interested la..

hmm clutchless shift actually got it's purpose one haha.but not reckon hentam the gear always.like for me...onces i was travelling back from setapak using mRR2...half way when i downshift to 3rd gear and let go my clucth...the clutch went down and the cable snap..
that time clutchless shift helps me to downshift to 2nd gear and able to cruise another 7km until i reach a damn slope and all the cars were going to stop for dunno wat aparent reason.

that's just my 2sen experience to apply clutchless shift for onces.haha..seldom play wit it, cannot tahan the sound.very brutal

 

[thteh86]

hehehe....but gear box now okay d...don't wanna play with clutchless shift d...scared of damanging the synchro

clutchless shift will perform better if we brake then clutch. But clutch in 1st will do too, just don't know why. Just based on my experience la

heheheh yeah esca, wanna bill on sarukun d

 

[BabyGodzillaGTi-R]

Why u guys bother so much.
Just drive an automatic lah.
Less hassle.
Just slot into D.
Use the brakes to slow down lah. If not use the
I want "drive to win"...... Any idea how much is it retailing these days? Not bad considering it's a really old book. If i recall the 1st publication, the front page is an old McLaren car when it was running the TAG Porsche engine.
End of the day i cant really think of anyone double decluthing these days since most cars are running helical gears and with syncros.

 

[differ]

hmmm, there must another aspect to it that we haven't realised yet. i mean, if defensive driving courses like Driver's Edge and all are teaching 2xClutching, there has to be some use in knowing at least the basics of it? safety wise perhaps?

oh, can i have copies of the "XXXXX to Win" books as well? :D

i'll throw in free makan as well!

 

[cyclonite]

Originally posted by saru-kun@Feb 23 2005, 19:34
rev matching
a technique done during a downshift to prevent the "lurch" when the clutch is let off
- clutch in
- drop down a cog
- blip the throttle
- clutch out

I wouldn't do it like that. I would change the sequence to....

- clutch in
- push gear into neutral
- blip the throttle
- drop down a cog
- clutch out

Simply because I always believe it's better for us to rev the engine to match the revs rather than using your synchromesh to match the revs for you. That's why I always rev in neutral before engaging the gear in.